color estimate with candi sugar

[nkiner]

I've been playing around with the demo of beersmith, and I like it quite a bit so far.  One thing I just tried though is entering in the recipe for a extract + steeped grain belgian dubbel (a kit from northern brewer) and my color estimate turned out almost solid black!  I was a little scared at first since I had never brewed this kit before, but  when I did finally brew it the color was more like what I expected.

The culprit seems to be the dark candi sugar, the recipe calls for a pound of it, and when you add it to beersmith the color goes pretty much straight black.  So my question is, does the color calculator  just not handle candi sugar quite right, or is my candi sugar not as dark as some, or what?  Not that its a huge deal, just kind of curious.

[BeerSmith]

Hi,
 The problem is that the default entry for Dark Candi Sugar in our database has an SRM value of 275 which is dark enough to blacken any normal recipe.

 Most likely the dark candi sugar you used was much closer to Amber candi sugar which has an SRM of about 75.0 or perhaps even less.  

 Unfortunately the definition of "dark" varies by manufacturer.  A quick internet search revealed many as dark as 275, but one or two candi sugars as low as 20 SRM being sold as dark.

 The best thing to do is enter the actual SRM value for the sugar you are using.  Many manufacturers and suppliers will list their color value on their site or on the bag.

Brad

[nkiner]

Interestingly, my candi sugar was sold as 275 SRM, but it didn't look all that dark to me.  Using the 'amber' sugar did give me much closer to accurate results though.

[R. Gibson]

I know this is an old thread...but I'm running into the same issue as the OP...just got a brewing kit for a Belgian Dubbel with a pound of dark Belgian candi sugar that is supposedly rated at 275L, which BS3 is saying will turn my Dubbel into a Porter...
Looking at Morebeer.com, their "Dark candi sugar" image looks more amber to me. Looking at NorthernBrewer.com, the online photo of their dark candi sugar looks identical to what I have, and it says the following:

"Imported from Belgium, this sugar is refined from sugar beets, and is 100% fermentable. Rated at 275?L; actual color contribution is lower."

...so Brad...what does that last statement mean? Is the 275L assumed to be including the maillard reactions in a full boil, whereas if you add it to the whirlpool, will not contribute as much color? Or are the manufacturer's color contribution numbers just completely arbitrary with respect to grain color contribution? In any case, how do I work with Beersmith to correlate to ACTUAL color contribution? I tried changing the candi sugar in my recipe to "whirlpool" and the SRM calculation didn't change...

[brewfun]

"Imported from Belgium, this sugar is refined from sugar beets, and is 100% fermentable. Rated at 275?L; actual color contribution is lower."

...so Brad...what does that last statement mean? Is the 275L assumed to be including the maillard reactions in a full boil, whereas if you add it to the whirlpool, will not contribute as much color? Or are the manufacturer's color contribution numbers just completely arbitrary with respect to grain color contribution? In any case, how do I work with Beersmith to correlate to ACTUAL color contribution? I tried changing the candi sugar in my recipe to "whirlpool" and the SRM calculation didn't change...

In terms of wort color, candi sugar works similarly to malt color contributions. The difference is that a significant portion of malt color is derived from protiens and the breakdown of carbohydrate. Enzymatic reactions change the malt components into stable structures that persist into the final beer.

Sugar caramelization is non-enzymatic browning that results in complex chains of essentially oxidized and rearranged sugars. In fermentation, the oxidized portions of the sugars are released as alcohol, water based flavonoids and carbon dioxide. The flavonoids retain color, the others reduce it. Malt, with unreducible proteins and unfermentable sugars simply retain more coloring power than caramelized sugar.

[R. Gibson]

Wow, great info. Thanks!

Any thoughts on ACTUAL color contribution in Beersmith? Assuming the kit was designed within BJCP guidelines, it looks like reducing the SRM contribution of the sugar to around 90L would put it right at the top of the range. That's around 33% of the "rated" SRM, which sounds like it might align with your comments about only a portion of (alk/flav/C02) the sugar retaining its color...but I'd like something a little more definitive than an educated guess on my part...I doubt it's an even split between those three components...

[brewfun]

Wow, great info. Thanks!

Any thoughts on ACTUAL color contribution in Beersmith? Assuming the kit was designed within BJCP guidelines, it looks like reducing the SRM contribution of the sugar to around 90L would put it right at the top of the range.

I think Brad covered it pretty well. The default color in BeerSmith is not arbitrary, yet not comprehensive. Making an adjustment towards the final color is the brewer's prerogative. Do what works non-standard ingredients or processes and don't sweat it.

As with most ingredients, it can vary by manufacturer, batch and year. For example "light" Munich malt would mean 6 lov from Weyermann, but 10 lov from Gambrinus or 3 Lov from Schill. Meanwhile, "dark" would mean 10 lov from Weyermann to 30 lov from Gambrinus. Similarly, with most Belgian styles, "dark" simply means "not golden."