Very high OGs - extract vs partial mash?

[wepeeler]

Having an issue with missing my target OGs. I recently switched from light dme to extra light dme (pilsner). That's literally the only change I made from previous batches. I was always able to hit my target OGs. The last 2 batches have been very high...

I am under the impression that flaked oats and flaked wheat don't add much to the OG when steeped, unless accompanied by unmalted grain. I used 8oz flaked oats, 8 oz flaked wheat, 8 oz carapils and 8 oz of white wheat malt. Steeped until I hit 165 degrees, probably about 25 min over 150 degrees. When I used "extract" as my overall type recipe my target OG was 1.058. However, I got 1.072. When I changed the type to "partial mash", the estimated target OG is 1.073. SO, I'm assuming I actually did a partial mash?

Any insight on this would be great. I've overshot my target OG my last 2 batches, but I think it's because I am actually doing a partial mash vs all extract.

[BOB357]

White wheat malt has fairly high diastatic power, so you actually did a partial mash and got good extraction from the flaked grains.

[Oginme]

When you steep grains, that is specialty grains where the starches has already been converted into sugars, BeerSmith applies a "steeping efficiency" of (I think the default is) 19%, which is to say that 19% of the potential of the specialty grains becomes added to the gravity of the wort being produced.

When you have a base malt, such as wheat malt in your example, the enzymes released will convert any starches into sugars for the yeast to consume.  This is a much more efficient process at delivering fermentable sugars.  When this happens, the type of recipe should be changed to 'partial mash' to accommodate the increased sugars being liberated.  Here BeerSmith uses your brew house efficiency to figure out how much sugar needs to be extracted from the mash and calculates a mash efficiency based upon the percentage of the grain potential which is utilized.

So for your recipe, carapils is a dextrine malt which does not need to be converted and can be steeped to release the sugars it contains.  When steeped (at least in my experience) much of the dextrines seem to be reduced by the available enzymes into fermentable sugars. 

Malted wheat is a base malt which is composed of starches only, but also contains enzymes which will act to reduce those starches into sugars when mashed (steeped) at temperatures between 145?F and 162?F. 

Flaked wheat and flaked oats are unconverted grains which have starches but no enzymes to reduce those starches to sugars.  As such, to realize any amount of sugar potential from them, they must be mashed with an enzymatic base malt (such as the malted wheat.)  Putting them into a recipe with no base malt will release some starches into your wort, but no sugars.  These starches will not be used by the yeast, but can be consumed by other bacteria, leading to a reduced shelf life of your beer.

The net result for you is 'yes' you were doing a partial mash (you had unconverted grains and 'steeped' with an enzymatic base malt), and that explains the increased gravity you realized from these batches.  If you look at the description of these malts in BeerSmith, you will find that some of them are marked "TRUE" for the 'must mash' descriptor.  Those are malts that need to be mashed in order to contribute fermentable sugars.  Those malts that are labeled 'TRUE' for the 'must mash' descriptor and have a value above zero for 'diastatic power' are base malts which have some enzymatic potential to provide those enzymes needed to reduce the starches to sugars for the yeast to feast upon.

[wepeeler]

Thanks a lot guys. I had a feeling I was getting some points from the flaked oats and flaked wheat. Until yesterday (before researching), I was unaware that the flaked oats and flaked wheat didn't contain enzymes to convert the starches to fermentables. I was searching recipes for NEIPA extract recipes with specialty grains and I came across one that had the flaked oats and flaked wheat but also contained the white wheat malt. I wasn't sure why it was there, but obviously the guy wanted to get fermentables as well as protein/haze.

Another question: if I was to add only the carapils and flaked oats/wheat, would that lead to a sweeter beer? Since the starch wouldn't be consumed by the yeast?

[Oginme]

Do you have any corn starch in your pantry?  If so, try a little and that will give you some idea of the taste. 

Starches are not sweet and will not make the beer sweeter without being converted into sugars.

[wepeeler]

I only asked about the sweetness from the starches, because almost all of my neipas have an underlying sweetness to them. Not sure if my target OG is set too high or if I have unfermentable sugars hanging around. Or perhaps my yeast didn't attenuate enough. I did a starter for the 1st time in the batch I just brewed last week. Maybe that will help.


Thanks for the info.

[wepeeler]

When you steep grains, that is specialty grains where the starches has already been converted into sugars, BeerSmith applies a "steeping efficiency" of (I think the default is) 19%, which is to say that 19% of the potential of the specialty grains becomes added to the gravity of the wort being produced.

When you have a base malt, such as wheat malt in your example, the enzymes released will convert any starches into sugars for the yeast to consume.  This is a much more efficient process at delivering fermentable sugars.  When this happens, the type of recipe should be changed to 'partial mash' to accommodate the increased sugars being liberated.  Here BeerSmith uses your brew house efficiency to figure out how much sugar needs to be extracted from the mash and calculates a mash efficiency based upon the percentage of the grain potential which is utilized.

So for your recipe, carapils is a dextrine malt which does not need to be converted and can be steeped to release the sugars it contains.  When steeped (at least in my experience) much of the dextrines seem to be reduced by the available enzymes into fermentable sugars. 

Malted wheat is a base malt which is composed of starches only, but also contains enzymes which will act to reduce those starches into sugars when mashed (steeped) at temperatures between 145?F and 162?F. 

Flaked wheat and flaked oats are unconverted grains which have starches but no enzymes to reduce those starches to sugars.  As such, to realize any amount of sugar potential from them, they must be mashed with an enzymatic base malt (such as the malted wheat.)  Putting them into a recipe with no base malt will release some starches into your wort, but no sugars.  These starches will not be used by the yeast, but can be consumed by other bacteria, leading to a reduced shelf life of your beer.

The net result for you is 'yes' you were doing a partial mash (you had unconverted grains and 'steeped' with an enzymatic base malt), and that explains the increased gravity you realized from these batches.  If you look at the description of these malts in BeerSmith, you will find that some of them are marked "TRUE" for the 'must mash' descriptor.  Those are malts that need to be mashed in order to contribute fermentable sugars.  Those malts that are labeled 'TRUE' for the 'must mash' descriptor and have a value above zero for 'diastatic power' are base malts which have some enzymatic potential to provide those enzymes needed to reduce the starches to sugars for the yeast to feast upon.

Ok, so I thought I understood what was going on, but I'm still getting wacko OGs. My equipment profile stayed the same, and I tweaked my recipe to go from 1.072 in my original recipe down to 1.064 using the partial mash setting in Beersmith. The only difference from my original recipe was I used less dme. I still used flaked oats, flaked wheat, carapils and white wheat malt. I steeped/mashed at 155 for the same amount of time. Boiled as usual and my OG was 1.052. Which is what Beersmith predicted if I switched the setting to "extract". Made yet another recipe last night, again using same recipe and using the extract setting. OG was 1.064. Changed to partial mash and predicted OG went to 1.070. So I have no clue what's going on. I can't imagine being off .006 or .007 is normal. HELP!

[GigaFemto]

Posting the recipes with the session results filled in would help. BeerSmith does have an inconsistency in calculating the gravity contributions from DME across the 3 recipe types when loss to trub and chiller is non-zero. It over-estimates the contribution from the DME in partial mash and all grain. If I take a blank recipe for a 5 gallon batch and add 5 lbs of DME (potential of 1.044) with zero trub loss the resulting OG is 1.044 for all three recipe types, as it should be. If the loss to trub and chiller is increased to 1 gallon the resulting OG for all grain and partial mash don't change and stay at 1.044, while the OG for extract drops to 1.036, which is correct: 1+.044*(5/6) = 1.036. This is just an error in BeerSmith. For some reason none of the points from the extract are left behind in the trub. I noticed this long ago and do my own OG calculations for recipes that contain significant amounts of DME. My most recent brew was a Double IPA with 2.5 lbs of DME and BeerSmith predicted an OG of 1.079 and my own calculations predicted 1.072, which is just what I got.

--GF

[wepeeler]

Posting the recipes with the session results filled in would help. BeerSmith does have an inconsistency in calculating the gravity contributions from DME across the 3 recipe types when loss to trub and chiller is non-zero. It over-estimates the contribution from the DME in partial mash and all grain. If I take a blank recipe for a 5 gallon batch and add 5 lbs of DME (potential of 1.044) with zero trub loss the resulting OG is 1.044 for all three recipe types, as it should be. If the loss to trub and chiller is increased to 1 gallon the resulting OG for all grain and partial mash don't change and stay at 1.044, while the OG for extract drops to 1.036, which is correct: 1+.044*(5/6) = 1.036. This is just an error in BeerSmith. For some reason none of the points from the extract are left behind in the trub. I noticed this long ago and do my own OG calculations for recipes that contain significant amounts of DME. My most recent brew was a Double IPA with 2.5 lbs of DME and BeerSmith predicted an OG of 1.079 and my own calculations predicted 1.072, which is just what I got.

--GF

I attached my recipe and equipment profile. I must be doing something wrong and just can't see it. Maybe a fresh set of eyes will help.

[Oginme]

Thanks for the pictures, but to really see how the program is operating it will help to get a .bsmx file of your recipe.  You can export it by selecting the file and then clicking on 'file' > 'export selected'.  When the save file screen ops up, make sure the file type is .bsmx and give it a name.  The program will save the file and you can attach it. 

I think GigaFemto has a good lock on what is happening, but we can go through the file and see if there is something else at cause.

[wepeeler]

Thanks for the pictures, but to really see how the program is operating it will help to get a .bsmx file of your recipe.  You can export it by selecting the file and then clicking on 'file' > 'export selected'.  When the save file screen ops up, make sure the file type is .bsmx and give it a name.  The program will save the file and you can attach it. 

I think GigaFemto has a good lock on what is happening, but we can go through the file and see if there is something else at cause.

Gotcha. I've attached it. Thanks.

[GigaFemto]

The recipe you posted should be used as an extract recipe. You have Carapils, Flaked Oats and Flaked Wheat which have potential but there are no enzymes to convert the starches to sugars. In that case all the sugar content from the flakes comes from the extract, the Carapils contributes a bit because it is already converted, and the 1.059 from BeerSmith is correct. If you add a malt with enough enzymes to convert the flakes, then you would get a few points from them and you could call it a partial mash recipe, but then BeerSmith would over-estimate the contribution from the extract.

--GF

[wepeeler]

The recipe you posted should be used as an extract recipe. You have Carapils, Flaked Oats and Flaked Wheat which have potential but there are no enzymes to convert the starches to sugars. In that case all the sugar content from the flakes comes from the extract, the Carapils contributes a bit because it is already converted, and the 1.059 from BeerSmith is correct. If you add a malt with enough enzymes to convert the flakes, then you would get a few points from them and you could call it a partial mash recipe, but then BeerSmith would over-estimate the contribution from the extract.

--GF

Right. So what about this one? I used the same ingredients as my 1st recipe, just 1 pound less dme. Target OG went from 1.072 to 1.063 when using partial mash setting. My actual OG was 1.052, which works if I change to the extract setting. BUT, I used carapil, flaked oats, flaked wheat and white wheat malt. The white wheat malt has enzymes that should theoretically pull fermentables out of the oats and wheat. Maybe my efficiency was way low?

[GigaFemto]

The white wheat has a diastatic power of 130 Lintner, and it is 1/4 of the grist, so you would get an overall rating of 32 Lintner, which is still quite low on enzymes. The conversion would be very slow and possibly incomplete. Adding another 4-8 oz of white wheat would help  with conversion speed. You have your mash efficiency at 84%, which is pretty high although not out of the question. To achieve an efficiency that high you need very finely crushed grains (flakes are OK) and you need to make sure your pH is in the 5.2-5.5 range. Are you checking your mash pH? To untangle the contributions from the grains and the extract you need to measure your mash efficiency, so check your gravity post-mash. Then you might be able to sort it out.

The extract alone is giving you 44 points/lb/gal*(6 lbs/5 gal)*(5 gals into fermenter/5.25 gals with trub)=50 points or OG of 1.050. Your mash efficiency would have to be really low, like 15% if it was to only give 2 more points. This assumes that all of your volume and weight measurements are accurate.

--GF

[wepeeler]

The white wheat has a diastatic power of 130 Lintner, and it is 1/4 of the grist, so you would get an overall rating of 32 Lintner, which is still quite low on enzymes. The conversion would be very slow and possibly incomplete. Adding another 4-8 oz of white wheat would help  with conversion speed. You have your mash efficiency at 84%, which is pretty high although not out of the question. To achieve an efficiency that high you need very finely crushed grains (flakes are OK) and you need to make sure your pH is in the 5.2-5.5 range. Are you checking your mash pH? To untangle the contributions from the grains and the extract you need to measure your mash efficiency, so check your gravity post-mash. Then you might be able to sort it out.

The extract alone is giving you 44 points/lb/gal*(6 lbs/5 gal)*(5 gals into fermenter/5.25 gals with trub)=50 points or OG of 1.050. Your mash efficiency would have to be really low, like 15% if it was to only give 2 more points. This assumes that all of your volume and weight measurements are accurate.

--GF

So in the last recipe I posted, extract was the correct setting? Not enough enzymes and time to convert oats/wheat to fermentables?

I just can't seem to get consistent, predictable OGs. The beer is coming out just fine, but it's frustrating not being able to hit my numbers.