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BeerSmith Software => BeerSmith 2 Bugs/Support => Topic started by: PeeBee on February 20, 2019, 11:26:18 AM

Title: Water/grain ratio
Post by: PeeBee on February 20, 2019, 11:26:18 AM
Perhaps an inconsistency rather than a bug?

The first mash step (tested with infusion type 1st step, rest temperature type) in a mash profile correctly calculates water/grain ratio (based on amount of water with grain = total amount of water less any for deadspace). Subsequent mash steps calculate without removing deadspace. So ratio changes without adding water which obviously isn't right.

For BIAB even first step includes water added for deadspace. So ratio doesn't change through the steps, but the ratio is "wrong". The Step 1 details do not include a "mash tun deadspace addition" like a "normal" (not a BIAB) mash.

Title: Re: Water/grain ratio
Post by: dtapke on February 20, 2019, 12:24:44 PM
Not sure i follow, if you're setting up a single infusion(1) with a temp rest(2), your first volume will include the deadspace addition per your equipment profile. The second step will not add any liquid as it is a temp rest.

If you set up for a double infusion then the mash steps will provide a secondary volume to add to make the second mash temperature change. In the Mash section there's a check box to add for deadspace.

Can you upload a .bsmx with the recipe you're having concerns about and explain where you think the discrepancy is? you can alter the water/grain ratio, the deadspace volume, and the grain absorption rate as needed if you feel it's off.
Title: Re: Water/grain ratio
Post by: PeeBee on February 22, 2019, 04:23:04 AM
The attached is what I'm brewing right now.

Ignore the kooky structure of the mash schedule as a more conventional structure acts the same way; it's my workaround to get a Grainfather Connect session to handle "strike" (which the makers don't believe it needs). "Strike" is the first step, an "infusion" step, "saccharification" the second step, a "temperature" step. The steps get out of order (hence numbered) so the "strike" step may need moving up to the top - but that's another issue.

The first, infusion, step includes the newish (v3 only?) "mash tun deadspace addition" and has the water/grain ratio as 2.7. Good.

The second, temperature, step does not have the "mash tun deadspace addition" field and includes that addition as a quantity in the water/grain ratio, so the ratio is now 3.45 despite no water addition.

for "BIAB" you never get a "mash tun deadspace addition" so the ratio is always 3.45. It was while messing with "BIAB" feature (using "full boil mash" with Grainfather Connect) that the problem showed itself.
Title: Re: Water/grain ratio
Post by: dtapke on February 22, 2019, 09:11:29 AM
Trying to figure out your mashing goals here...

if you set up a single infusion to 144 it should automatically heat your water to the appropriate temperature?

Also, your grain temp and mash tun temps are 153.1, you input the temps BEFORE heating here.

I'm just trying to figure out what your goal schedule would look like,

how much water do you want to use, what temperature steps, how many steps.

your mash profile just looks totally messed up and i think thats your issue, is just setting it up properly, I'm sure theres some tutorials on setting up a mash profile as well, but I'll gladly try and help figure out what you've got going on here.
Title: Re: Water/grain ratio
Post by: Oginme on February 22, 2019, 09:57:41 AM
I am also confused by your steps in the mash schedule, but I think I understand your point. 

Once that initial water has been added and the water to grain ratio set, then the program considers all water addition in the subsequent steps.  On the surface, one might say that this skews the perception of water to grain when steps are considered.  Unlike a single infusion mash in a mash tun where the water under the false bottom and not in contact with the wort would only passively participate in the mashing process of solubilizing the starches and enzymes only through the osmosis of the fluids from the grain basket into the water below, the Grainfather has a pump which recirculates the fluid bringing it all into contact with the grain bed.  Additionally, with such a device, temperature steps would be done through that recirculating system and not with subsequent infusions of water.  I think this is what is confusing about the mash profile as it comes up.  Your steps are numbered 2. Saccharification, 1. Strike, and 3. Mash out.  Ideally, you would add the water and then strike with the grains initially at the lower temperature, then after suitable rest, bring the temperature up using the Grainfather to saccharification temperatures.  No additional water should be needed and the calculation of water to grain ratio which excludes the water under the mash pipe only comes into play at the initial water addition.

The fact that the subsequent water to grain calculations uses the water under the mash pipe in subsequent mash steps is really immaterial once you start recirculating it.

Title: Re: Water/grain ratio
Post by: dtapke on February 22, 2019, 10:49:09 AM
I would think your mash would look more like this if you're performing a single infusion mash? (assuming a 144F mash as you entered)
Title: Re: Water/grain ratio
Post by: PeeBee on February 22, 2019, 11:15:17 AM
...  Your steps are numbered 2. Saccharification, 1. Strike, and 3. Mash out.  ...
Ah. So they are appearing out of order for you too. I mentioned this: "1. Strike" should be the 1st step. It appears to be an issue (not fixed by my attempts - prefixing the step name with order), but it isn't the one I intended to report in this thread.
Title: Re: Water/grain ratio
Post by: PeeBee on February 22, 2019, 11:28:32 AM
Trying to figure out your mashing goals here...

if you set up a single infusion to 144 it should automatically heat your water to the appropriate temperature?

Also, your grain temp and mash tun temps are 153.1, you input the temps BEFORE heating here.

I'm just trying to figure out what your goal schedule would look like,

how much water do you want to use, what temperature steps, how many steps.

your mash profile just looks totally messed up and i think thats your issue, is just setting it up properly, I'm sure theres some tutorials on setting up a mash profile as well, but I'll gladly try and help figure out what you've got going on here.
I did warn you of some kooky workarounds! But they are not the issue, and the workarounds do work (but having the grain temperature at strike temperature is an unfortunate consequence).

The issue is inconsistent handling of the "water/grain ratio".

If you've got the stamina (the articles are quite long) this gives you a good idea of what I'm doing:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/11engfVsgy6okCgLiuwb8gc2gaMVahiV7/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ISrSYlK5q5Acf1xHgaZ8mC_0mm2UWuhA/view?usp=sharing
Title: Re: Water/grain ratio
Post by: PeeBee on February 22, 2019, 11:54:39 AM
I would think your mash would look more like this if you're performing a single infusion mash? (assuming a 144F mash as you entered)
Thanks. But that misses the point and has got way off subject. "Strike" step is described in Part 1 of my article under "mash profile with strike (optional)". It is done because Grainfathers have no concept of "strike", but I'm an "old dog" and won't learn these strike-less mash "new tricks".

I really shouldn't have posted that bsmx file. It was full of distracting little nibbets that haven't much to do with the issue I'm reporting (water/grain ratio).

The beer it features was what I was doing today, and is complete, waiting now for the yeast to burst into action.
Title: Re: Water/grain ratio
Post by: Oginme on February 22, 2019, 12:02:13 PM
...  Your steps are numbered 2. Saccharification, 1. Strike, and 3. Mash out.  ...
Ah. So they are appearing out of order for you too. I mentioned this: "1. Strike" should be the 1st step. It appears to be an issue (not fixed by my attempts - prefixing the step name with order), but it isn't the one I intended to report in this thread.

When i changed the order, the water all came in on the first step and showed the corrected water to grain ratio.  After that, there was no more water added until the sparge. 
Title: Re: Water/grain ratio
Post by: PeeBee on February 22, 2019, 12:23:12 PM
...  Your steps are numbered 2. Saccharification, 1. Strike, and 3. Mash out.  ...
Ah. So they are appearing out of order for you too. I mentioned this: "1. Strike" should be the 1st step. It appears to be an issue (not fixed by my attempts - prefixing the step name with order), but it isn't the one I intended to report in this thread.

When i changed the order, the water all came in on the first step and showed the corrected water to grain ratio.  After that, there was no more water added until the sparge.
That's it! But notice the water/grain ratio has changed for the subsequent steps (seemingly these include the deadspace which the first doesn't). It would be better if the ratio was not shown at all in the subsequent steps.

But if you were doing a "full boil mash" ("BIAB") even the first step is bad.
Title: Re: Water/grain ratio
Post by: dtapke on February 22, 2019, 12:30:33 PM
as oginme stated, changing your order also fixed that for me as well. and "Strike" isn't a task, but a temperature really, "strike" temp refers to the temp you need to reach to get the correct temperature for your mash. Therefore BS automatically provides you the "strike" temp when you set up a single infusion mash.

in fact even in your googledoc writeup your screenshots show the same thing. only the initial water addition.

Is the issue you're having perhaps that when you setup for a 67C mash, the grainfather connect does not automatically start with a temp high enough (75c?) to get your "Strike" temp?

Title: Re: Water/grain ratio
Post by: dtapke on February 22, 2019, 12:34:42 PM
remove your recoverable mash tun deadspace from your equipment profile if you don't want to see the different water/grain ratios.

It is not listing the recoverable mash tun deadspace in your "strike" but it will list it in subsequent steps.

I think i see what you're getting at here, but i guess its a non-issue so i wouldn't think twice about it lol.
Title: Re: Water/grain ratio
Post by: dtapke on February 22, 2019, 02:13:00 PM
if you change your recoverable mash loss to 0, and set up as a full boil this issue remedies itself. see my attached screenshots, is this how you'd prefer it to set up?
Title: Re: Water/grain ratio
Post by: Oginme on February 22, 2019, 05:00:32 PM
As someone who does 90+% full volume biab, i really don't pay attention to the water to grain ratio.  I want the full volume of water which would give me a water to grist ratio well in excess of the minimum needed to ensure good starch solubility and enzyme mobility.  When i do step infusions on my 3v system, i only really care about the effective water to grist ratio in 5hat first step to ensure i meet that minimum as well.  Not sure there is an issue here that makes a significant difference. 

I di see what you are looking at, just not sure why it matters beyond the initial infusion step.
Title: Re: Water/grain ratio
Post by: PeeBee on February 23, 2019, 03:09:44 AM
as oginme stated, changing your order also fixed that for me as well. and "Strike" isn't a task, but a temperature really, "strike" temp refers to the temp you need to reach to get the correct temperature for your mash. Therefore BS automatically provides you the "strike" temp when you set up a single infusion mash.

in fact even in your googledoc writeup your screenshots show the same thing. only the initial water addition.

Is the issue you're having perhaps that when you setup for a 67C mash, the grainfather connect does not automatically start with a temp high enough (75c?) to get your "Strike" temp?
You are right, "Strike" isn't a task. It is part two of a filthy fix to force Grainfather Connect (not Beersmith!) to include "strike" procedure as an automated mash step, so the Grainfather reaches strike temperature, beeps, and waits until the set button is pressed once the grain has been mixed in where upon it proceeds at mash temperature. So nothing to do with Beersmith, and the step looks pretty bazaar out of context with its part one (from which it forms). Sorry, I shouldn't have allowed something so distracting to appear in this thread.

But I will need time to consider whether setting "recoverable mash loss" to zero offers a useable work around for the water/grain ratio issue. Pity, the introduction of "recoverable mash tun deadspace" was a great advance (for BSv3 users), especially for users of Grainfathers (I run a 3V brewery too, in conjunction with Beersmith, the Grainfather is my "pilot" brewery). Thank you.
Title: Re: Water/grain ratio
Post by: PeeBee on February 23, 2019, 03:49:56 AM
As someone who does 90+% full volume biab, i really don't pay attention to the water to grain ratio.  I want the full volume of water which would give me a water to grist ratio well in excess of the minimum needed to ensure good starch solubility and enzyme mobility.  When i do step infusions on my 3v system, i only really care about the effective water to grist ratio in 5hat first step to ensure i meet that minimum as well.  Not sure there is an issue here that makes a significant difference. 

I di see what you are looking at, just not sure why it matters beyond the initial infusion step.
Thanks. I didn't pay much attention to water/grain ratio until I got this Grainfather and wanted to continue using Beersmith (because I also have a 1/2 barrel 3 vessel brewery too). I am also quite capable of working around the issues with Beersmith. But I wasn't asking for help, I was reporting an inconsistency in Beersmith, which this thread seems to have successfully proven.

The "water/grain ratio" is being calculated differently for the second and subsequent steps of a "normal" mash and for all steps in a "BIAB" type mash.

It probably came about when the new "recoverable mash tun deadspace" facility was introduced (which fixed some far more insidious issues). As a result of this thread it also high-lighted some other issues:

1: The order of mash steps is not stable (or user configurable). In v3 that is.

2: "Grain absorption" would be better as an Equipment parameter rather than a global parameter (which is made clearer by an older "fix" which split the global parameter in two, one for "BIAB").

3: The "mash tun deadspace addition" in mash steps shouldn't give the impression it can be edited (should be "greyed out").

Okay, the last two weren't "high-lighted" but did become more obvious meddling with this stuff.
Title: Re: Water/grain ratio
Post by: Oginme on February 23, 2019, 05:05:43 AM
I can say from experience with my own mash steps and also in altering yours that I can reorder the mash steps as you indicated they should be and it remains as such.  I opened up the mash tab and in the dialog box with the mash steps clicked once on the 'strike' step.  I then clicked on the icon below the dialog box labeled 'move step up' and it readjusted the order of the steps accordingly 1,2,3.  I saved the recipe and closed it before exiting out of BeerSmith.  I started BeerSmith a bit later and opened the recipe again and the steps were still in the corrected order.  I am not sure why this is not happening for you.

I fully agree that the grain absorption figure should be included in the equipment profile and have made this suggestion directly to Brad previously.  I am sure that if enough people request it that he would make the change in upcoming releases.  As someone who moves between various equipment set up, it is frustrating to have to go in and adjust the grain absorption figure for each.

Why should the mash tun addition not be editable?  It can always be adjusted within the recipe by editing the equipment profile and if I were to switch my Gott coolers around, I would need to change that figure as one has a false bottom but the other is just a braided coil.  Having it available to adjust gives me the flexibility to make that change without having to make a whole new equipment profile or editing that separately within the recipe.  I can think of arguments both ways but the biggest advantage BeerSmith has is the flexibility of use and adjusting the parameters not only of equipment but also of the root models to match the users process.  I know that there are other Grainfather users on this forum, maybe a direct question of how they were able to overcome the mash issue you are encountering might give you some new ideas.
Title: Re: Water/grain ratio
Post by: PeeBee on February 23, 2019, 06:30:57 AM
? I can reorder the mash steps as you indicated they should be and it remains as such. ?

Nope, it's got it in for me! (See attachment).

? I fully agree that the grain absorption figure should be included in the equipment profile ?
:)

? Why should the mash tun addition not be editable?  It can always be adjusted within the recipe by editing the equipment profile and if I were to switch my Gott coolers around, I would need to change that figure as one has a false bottom but the other is just a braided coil.  Having it available to adjust gives me the flexibility to make that change without having to make a whole new equipment profile or editing that separately within the recipe.  I can think of arguments both ways but the biggest advantage BeerSmith has is the flexibility of use and adjusting the parameters not only of equipment but also of the root models to match the users process.  I know that there are other Grainfather users on this forum, maybe a direct question of how they were able to overcome the mash issue you are encountering might give you some new ideas.
I meant in the "mash step" on the Mash page (see attachments), it isn't editable there but the suggestion is that it is. Not a problem to me, but I have seen posts from others struggling with this.

I too am well happy with the flexibility of Beersmith, which will even bend to my kooky ideas. But I also write articles to translate ideas to others (like the articles I attached in this thread) and I'd rather not tell people to ignore this and that because "this and that" will lead you astray. It just doesn't come over as a recommendation to use Beersmith.

I do give other Grainfather users the opportunity to make suggestions about my ideas, but the article I attached attracted zero comment. I think this thread has taught me I might be thinking a good bit further in distance than just "outside of the box".
Title: Re: Water/grain ratio
Post by: Oginme on February 23, 2019, 06:38:47 AM
On the mash tab if you click on any step in the dialog box, you can click below to 'edit step' and that step will pop up for you to adjust.  Is this what you are looking for? 
Title: Re: Water/grain ratio
Post by: PeeBee on February 23, 2019, 06:54:58 AM
Not what I was looking for - it is what I was looking at. And you can edit "mash tun deadspace addition". But that's the problem. The change doesn't stick. Nor do I think it should stick, the change is made in the equipment profile and being able to make the change to individual mash steps will lead to madness (not for me - I'm already there).
Title: Re: Water/grain ratio
Post by: Oginme on February 23, 2019, 07:09:06 AM
I am trying to figure out what you mean by 'it doesn't stick'.  Are you saying that once you edit a mash step within a recipe that the recipe automatically reverts back to the previous mash step version once you have clicked OK?  Are you saying that when you have edited the mash step within a recipe that the mash profile your library does not reflect this change?  Or are you saying that when you edit the mash profile in your profile library that it is not reflected in the recipe?

One thing to note that every recipe in BeerSmith is a self contained archive.  Once you have created a recipe, all the profiles in that recipe are locked and can only be changed within the recipe.  Same goes with ingredients and pricing.  The rationale for this is so that you have a permanent archive of the recipe you brewed which will not be affected by future changes to the profiles or ingredients outside the recipe.  The downside is that if you change one of your profiles outside the recipe, you must then go into each recipe you want to be affected by that change and update the profile by re-clicking on the profiles and selecting the updated version.

Does this information help with your frustration? 
Title: Re: Water/grain ratio
Post by: PeeBee on February 23, 2019, 08:57:37 AM
Open the mash step. Change the "mash tun deadspace addition" (to, say, zero from 3.5). Just for fun change the step time. OK th dialog box. Reopen the mash step. The step time is still changed, but the "mash tun deadspace addition" is back to what was (3.5), i.e. it hasn't "stuck".

Suits me. I can't see why it would be changed here. But it is giving the impression that you can. Doesn't cause me any frustration either, but I know it does cause frustration with some folk, hence I've said it needs to be "greyed out". It is good enough to edit it in the profile (I did mean the recipe's copy of the profile in my last post).
Title: Re: Water/grain ratio
Post by: dtapke on February 23, 2019, 02:26:08 PM
Can confirm the inability to change tun deadspace within the mash box.

Can confirm that when i alter the mash steps (move up a step) click "OK" at the bottom, and then click "OK" when exiting out of the recipe, the order stays the same when re-opening. I can confirm it acts this way on both a PC running windows 7, as well as an iMac running Mojave 10.14.3, running BS3 3.0.8
Title: Re: Water/grain ratio - Where we are:
Post by: PeeBee on February 24, 2019, 02:38:31 AM
This is my summary of where (I think) we are up to:

The discussion on water/grain ratio has proved the value is inconsistent depending where it is displayed. But I'm being careful not to say which interpretation is "correct". (EDIT: By that I mean should the ratio include water in the "deadspaces", or should it not).

But along the way other issues were discussed of which the mash step ordering, which I am having frustration with, is outstanding.

I know this issue is demonstrated in the BSMX I posted (mash steps disorganised), but the error cannot be replicated on a different system (i.e. when the mash steps are put in the right order they stay in that order - but not on my system!). So finding the error is perhaps going to require a more "holistic" approach.

I'm running Beersmith v3.0.6 on Windows 10 Pro version 1809 (build 17763.316).
Title: Mash steps disorganised
Post by: PeeBee on February 25, 2019, 02:23:04 AM
This was off-subject (not about water/grain ratio) so I'll open another thread for it having discovered a forum for version 3 now (but it seems this problem has a history that goes well back).

I found the cause of the issue disorganising my mash steps. Having found it I can search the issue and find dozens of posts on the same subject going back a while too (but it hasn't been fixed). It's not a bug, it's a rash decision made by the programmer (Brad?): That mash steps always increase in temperature, so the mash steps can be sorted by "step temperature".

Of course there will always be people who want to step down in temperature, but Beersmith can't accommodate those people (not between Beersmith sessions), and that list of people now includes me!

? Can confirm that when i alter the mash steps (move up a step) click "OK" at the bottom, and then click "OK" when exiting out of the recipe, the order stays the same when re-opening. I can confirm it acts this way on both a PC running windows 7, as well as an iMac running Mojave 10.14.3, running BS3 3.0.8
You must exit the program and go back in, not just the recipe.