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Add Mash Water to Grain or Grain to Mash Water?

MikeinRH

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My efficiencies aren't what I think they should be, so I picked up Palmer's book to get back to basics. I had always been taught to add grain to mash water in order to prevent clumping and a stuck sparge. Palmer says to always add water to the grain (a gallon at a time) in order to prevent thermal shock to enzymes. Hmmm. What do you guys do?
 
I add grain to water.  My reasoning is that I take the mash tun specific heat out of the equation, by adding my strike water to the empty mash tun about 6F hotter than my strike temperature.  I then stir my hot strike water, while monitoring the temperature.  As soon as my strike water drops to my target strike temperature, I start adding grains.  I hit my mash in temp dead on every time.

I've found that clumping isn't a problem.  They break up quickly and easily.  Once they are broken up, they don't form again, so clumping isn't an issue if you stir well and check for them.

 
Scott Ickes said:
I add grain to water.  My reasoning is that I take the mash tun specific heat out of the equation, by adding my strike water to the empty mash tun about 6F hotter than my strike temperature.  I then stir my hot strike water, while monitoring the temperature.  As soon as my strike water drops to my target strike temperature, I start adding grains.  I hit my mash in temp dead on every time.

I've found that clumping isn't a problem.  They break up quickly and easily.  Once they are broken up, they don't form again, so clumping isn't an issue if you stir well and check for them.
I'm a new AG brewer and that is a great idea. I have done 3 batches and added grain to water every time, but not for those reasons. I find you have less of a chance at dough balls if you add grain to water. Now with the idea of adding all water and waiting for it to come down to temp, I really like that idea. Temp and volume are two things I am still struggling with slightly.

I don't know how adding water to grain is a good idea because I think you run the risk of water not getting to all of the grain depending upon how large your grain bill is.
 
Like Scott, I started preheating the tun with the strike water and adding the grain to the water and have been getting much better results. I, too, start with hotter than strike temp to preheat my tun, stirring and checking until it's at my strike temp, then dump the whole lot of grain in the tun, stir, check the temp, put the lid on and walk away.

I've seen more consistency hitting mash temps, fewer dough-balls, and less work doing it this way.
 
We all do what works for us.  I wouldn't suggest that brewers who add the water to grain change, if they are getting good results with their current method.

I teach maintenance classes quite often as a part of my job and I always tell my students, I'm going to teach you all of the different ways to do something that I know of.  If you're currently doing something and it's working, but different than what I teach, why should you change based on my advice?  History is the best indicator of what works for you.  If you have a succesful history doing something a certain way, you don't need to change, but you do have the option of changing for the sake of increasing your knowledge.
 
Hi guys,

We kinda do it like Scott, only backwards! :D
We have built a modified Brutus 20, 2 vessel system to make 10 gallon batches. When you get a 15 pound mash tun up high enough to gravity feed a 15 gallon BK on the stove, you don't want to put another 18 or 20 lbs of grain in it, along with an additional 50 or 60 pounds of water standing on a step stool! :-X

We have tried several things and now essentially add grain to water by putting the dry crushed grain in the MLT and put it up on the "stand". When the water, 3 to 5 *F + of strike, is ready, we pump it into the bottom of the MLT. The grain floats up and we stir it in with a 24" wooden spoon. We try to never use anything less than a 1.5 mash ratio to keep it loose and easy to mix. So while we are putting water into the grain, since most the grain has floated up, we can stir it down into the water a little at a time. So it is like adding grain to water ... backward! ::)!

Preston

We don't let our knickers bunch chasing efficiency. We use a recirculating Sparge/Mash out similar to Brew in the bag systems and consistently get 70% to 74%.
On brew day, it is what it is!
 
I like that backward approach and will be wanting to do it this way on my second all grain brew.  Since I have the same equip profile this sounds like a comfortable approach for me as I have been looking at different approaches since the first 10 g batch.  It looks like all I need is a pump and a little clarity.  Please explain 1.5 mash ratio a little more.  What size connector at the MLT?  Do you pump back through the strainer or screen or how does it distribute the strike through the bottom of the MLT? 
thanks
 
OzarkBrewer said:
I like that backward approach and will be wanting to do it this way on my second all grain brew.  Since I have the same equip profile this sounds like a comfortable approach for me as I have been looking at different approaches since the first 10 g batch.  It looks like all I need is a pump and a little clarity.  Please explain 1.5 mash ratio a little more.  What size connector at the MLT?  Do you pump back through the strainer or screen or how does it distribute the strike through the bottom of the MLT? 
thanks

Hello OzarkBrewer,

1.  "1.5 mash ratio" - As you develop your Mash Profile, you define the Mash Steps that make up the profile. Since it sounds like you are new to All Grain and we're just damn lazy, so the easiest Mash Profiles are the "Single Infusion Mash, XXXXXX Body, No Mash Out". This means only one step! (that's the lazy part) ::)
When you open the profile, you see there is only one infusion step. If you click on that step, you will see, and surly have read a lot about, that you basically define 3 key parameters. Step Temp, Step Time, Water to Add. Assuming you know the Temp and Time, water to add is where the ratio is defined. This, in US Homebrew terms, is the amount of water that you will add in Quarts per each Pound of grain you will mash. So a 1.5 ratio says you will add 1.5 quarts of water for every pound of grain. This ratio is debated over and over in all the books and blogs. We're lazy so we won't go into it, but BeerSmith usually defaults to a ratio of 1.25 quarts per pound. To more easily accomplish the Backward Grain to Water stuff, we change that to at least 1.5. This makes the mash thinner and is more easily mixed to prevent the dough balls and etc. As for the ratio ... Personally, we've tried ratios from 1.0 to 3.0 (3.0 takes a lot of MLT volume or a small batch). Since we don't have a lab, we have to rely on our taste buds. Who knows what about the enzymes.... whether they are thermally shocked or over diluted... we can't taste a difference so we use a ratio that fits our easy mix or MLT volume needs. You technical experts out there leave us alone. We're happy with our beer, so we don't worry about all your theory.  :eek:

2. What size connector - We use 1/2" NPT to 1/2" tube.

3. Do we pump back through the strainer or screen - Yep!!  The water goes in that way easier than it will come back out!  ;)

4. "It" doesn't distribute strike through the bottom. We distribute the strike with a 24 inch wooden spoon! :)

We certainly aren't making fun. There is soooo much that we read and learn to begin All Grain brewing, it takes a while before we can relax and realize that "WE" were the ones that made it seem so hard and complicated. In another 2 or 3 brews, you will know exactly what we mean. You will look back and say to yourself  .... "Damn ... why did we make that seem so complicated?"

Good Luck and Keep at It!

Preston
 
good stuff Preston!  I may be a lil on the lazy side too  ::)

One more question:  What pump?  Solar, electric?  Can't imagine a lazy brewer with a hand pump LOL!  Any link or Model would be appreciated greatly!

Happy Brewing to YOU!!
 
OzarkBrewer said:
good stuff Preston!  I may be a lil on the lazy side too  ::)

One more question:  What pump?  Solar, electric?  Can't imagine a lazy brewer with a hand pump LOL!  Any link or Model would be appreciated greatly!

Happy Brewing to YOU!!

Thanks Ozarkbrewer,

You are wrong about lazy brewers using a hand pump!  We did for a long time, but her arm got tired ;D Ok that was BS :)

We are using a basic March pump with the poly head. Two of my Son-In-Law's bought it for me for Christmas several years ago. I think they ordered it from Williams Brewing. Everybody carries the March or the Chugger Pump. Its a matter of what you find for the price you'll pay.

I've seen the adds for the Solar Pumps, mostly on ebay. They were originally intended to be used to recirculate your home hot water to reduce the time and water wasted running the "Hot" until it actually got hot. As such, they only see temps in the 120*F to 140*F. So I'm a bit unsure how they would hold up pumping your boil into a chiller. We use a plate chiller. If you use an immersion chiller, maybe it isn't a problem??

Preston

P.S. - Don't tell her I made that crack about the hand pump!!  :-X
 
Ha Ha... 8) I won't tell her but I will be laughing about it every time I start the pump!  Thanks, I'm going to do it this way the next time I brew if I can locate and afford a march by then.  I think it would allow me to brew a batch without the help of a friend by doing it this way.  It is nicer to have help and company though on brew day  :'(
 
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