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[Batch Sparge Full Body] Sweet Beer, to Mash Out or not?

His Dudeness

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Hi guys!

My oven (with electric crappy elements) isn't powerful enough to boil a 5 gallon batch (I've tried to split it in different pots but it take an AWFUL lot of time).  So usually I boil on a burner OUTSIDE, 'cause it's simpler, and nice.  But I live in Canada, and winter is quite something.  So I don't brew in winter, 'cause it waste so much propane.  But, we're having a really cold march month, and now I NEED to brew.
So I'll be doing a double gravity 2.5 gallon mash (my oven could handle this at least) and then top it up with water.
I've got a coleman cooler and I always mash with batch sparge.  But this time, I want to make a beer with lot of residual sugars.  So I would like to have a Full Body mash with Mash Out.  Since I should sparge with about 3 gallons, when I add mash out option, it give me ONLY 1L of sparge, 'cause I need about about 3 gallons of boiling water to get to Mash Out temperature.

So should I mash out?  Will a Fully Body will be enough to have residual sugars?
What do you guys think?

Thanks a lot.
 
Mash temperature controls residual sweetness. If you want a dry beer you mash in the 140s. If you want a full bodied beer you mash in the 150s.

As far as mashing out goes, I always use the decoction method. That's where, after you know conversion is complete, you remove a third of the mash. You bring that to a full boil, then mix it back in. That raises the temperature of the whole thing.  Then sparge as you normally would.
 
If you decoction mash out as Maine suggests, you can pull out one of three ways. 

1.  You can pull out mostly sweet wort, heat it and add it back to reach mash out temperature.  This won't add much carmelization or deepen the color of your beer much.

2.  You can pull out a mixture of wort and grain, heat it and add it back to reach mash out temperature.  I've never done this, so I don't know if it will add any carmelization or deepen the color.

3.  You can pull out the thickest part of the mash, bring it to a boil for about 15 minutes and add it back to reach your mash out temperature.  This is a true decoction mash out and will result in some sweet carmelization and some deepening of the color of your beer. 

I mash out either with the first or third methods, depending on the style of beer and if I do or don't want carmelization and a deepening of the color.

Once I get my mash up to 168F with one of those methods, then a vorlauf and drain.  Then I add my sparge water, vorlauf and drain again.
 
Thanks guys.

I like the decoction part for a mash out.
As I understand, if I don't mash out, when I'll drain the wort, conversion will still continue, and my beer will lose residual sugars.  So, I should mash out for my sweet beer.
 
I've not really noticed a problem with losing body without a mashout.

I do a small bitter at 1.037 or so and mash at 162 for really full body. I do no sparge and no mashout and it works quite well. finished ~1.012-1.014

 
His Dudeness said:
Thanks guys.

I like the decoction part for a mash out.
As I understand, if I don't mash out, when I'll drain the wort, conversion will still continue, and my beer will lose residual sugars.  So, I should mash out for my sweet beer.

I would say that you shouldn't mash out until you have completed conversion.  Once you have completed conversion, there isn't anything left to convert.  Yes, I know that sentence is stupid, but you said if you don't mash out conversion will continue.  I can't think of any reason to not let your mash go to completion. 

At higher mash temperatures, you get a fuller body, because you're conversion is at temperatures that produce some non-fermentable sugars.  This is what gives you the residual sweetness to go along with the fuller body.  You should also always raise the temperature of your mash up to about 168F, to make it easier to rinse the sugars out of your grains.  Why create them and leave them behind in the grain?

So, if you want a fuller bodied, sweeter beer, then it's the mash temperature that is important, not the mash out.
 
You are saying sweet. do you mean sweet? or do you mean full bodied and 'chewy'?

I do not find the long chain sugars created by high mash temps to be particularly sweet in impression. Maltodextrin is the sugar here and you can add that directly if you want for more body. for 'sweeter' there are a couple better options to explore.

The first is hopping rates. all beer in absence of some bitter ingredient would taste sweet because there are residual sugars and alcohol itself tastes sweet. We add hops to create a balancing bitterness which reduces the impression of sweetness. the biggest problem with this method is that hops also help with head retention and if you reduce them the alcohol will also degrade the head quicker. Not a problem if your fermentation is healthy and the alcohol levels aren't too high.

Crystal malts will leave unfermentable sugars that taste somewhat sweet behind. Too much can get a little overwhelming but I've had some really good beers with a surprising amount of crystal in the recipes (> 20%).

Lactose is unfermentable and has a somewhat sweet impression as well. I'm lactose intolerant so I don't use this but it's an option.

just some additional thoughts
 
Once you have completed conversion, there isn't anything left to convert.  Yes, I know that sentence is stupid, but you said if you don't mash out conversion will continue.

Yes and no.  Complete conversion means that there is no more starch left to convert to sugar. But not all sugar is equal. The longer chains that cannot be eaten by the yeast are what give residual sweetness. The beta amylase will continue nibbling at the ends of those chains. Mashing out will denature the enzymes, locking in the residual sweetness.
 
The advice has been excellent.

Double gravity beers need balance or you are tasting too much hot alcohol. Don't forget to hop it up! If you are familiar with the Kern River Citra IPA, you can taste a sweetness on your tongue that comes from honey malt and the citra hops. Hops can add to the perception of sweetness! Honey malt doesn't give you a intense honey flavor, just a hint. it's is  loaded with residual sugars due to the complex malting process it goes through. I wouldn't go high gravity without it and you don't have to add any unfermentable sugars. Your yeast selection is important. You don't want to use a yeast like 001 or 1056, which attenuate real well. I would use an English yeast like the Edinburgh WLP028. That will get you to around 1.016

As far as the mash out, if it is a volumetric issue with the equipment, forget it. Its cold outside, brewing outside in Canada this time of year must be a real @#%. The decoction may bring you to a new level of pain. Wait till warmer weather before you take that on.
So for now, I would say again forget it and go to boil.

Just another option!


 
morticaixavier said:
You are saying sweet. do you mean sweet? or do you mean full bodied and 'chewy'?

RiverBrewer said:
Double gravity beers need balance or you are tasting too much hot alcohol

My idea for now wasn't to make a big bold beer, but I'll keep the advices for when I'll make a scotch ale or a barley wine.  I want to make a young & green cask Mild with some sweetness and good body for my malt-lover friends (SG 1.040, 10 IBU).

morticaixavier said:
I do not find the long chain sugars created by high mash temps to be particularly sweet in impression.
Crystal malts will leave unfermentable sugars that taste somewhat sweet behind.

That's interesting, thanks.  My grain bill was lot of maris otter, with brown malt & amber, and insignificant amounts of melanoidin & chocolat.  So I might change it to add crystal or bump up the amount of melanoidin, since your making me unsure if my maris will be enough sweet.

RiverBrewer said:
As far as the mash out, if it is a volumetric issue with the equipment, forget it. Its cold outside, brewing outside in Canada this time of year must be a real @#%. The decoction may bring you to a new level of pain. Wait till warmer weather before you take that on.
So for now, I would say again forget it and go to boil.

WOW!  No, I don't want to die.  ;) I'll not be brewing outside, but inside on my oven, so that's why I have volumetric issues (since my oven is too crappy for boiling a full 6 gallon).



Thanks Scott and Maine HB, what you say really help me to clarify what I thought I knew about mash out and high temperature mash.
So I'm gonna mash at high temperature & mash-out-decoction.

Thanks again everyone.
 
Finally, I had a little problem that I had not anticipate.  I've done a 45mn single infusion mash, then I took some of the wort and boil it for 15mn.  By the time I got to sparging, after the decoction and draining the wort, the mash was so gelatinous that I got a real stuck sparge.
Next time, I might begin the decoction during the mash.
 
In my experience I get a stuck sparge when I drain too fast (45min to an hour works well), the grain was crushed too finely, or I used wheat in the recipe.

I keep a bag of rice hulls on hand just in case. Mix some of those into a stuck sparge and it will drain. It's messy but it works.
 
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