Efficiency issue

[KernelCrush]

Thank you for posting this for all to see. 

[KernelCrush]

I’m going to put this into practice in my own brewery and report how well the results match the expectations above. I’d appreciate reports from anyone that uses the procedure as laid out.

I was knee deep into this on Saturday before I saw the new recommendations.  Got 99.6 conversion, 91.4 kettle, what I was unprepared for is the temp drop from, I suspect, using a smaller volume in a larger cooler.   

[TAHammerton]

Am I understanding this correctly? So for a 5 gallon batch I need 8 gallons of water. Ideally If I am mashing 12.5lbs of grain then I should mash with 16 quarts of water and fly sparge with the same to get the 1:1 strike/sparge ratio. This should give me a 1.28qt/lb water grain ratio. Which should in term produce a first running gravity of about 1.094 initially?

[brewfun]

Got 99.6 conversion, 91.4 kettle, 

Excellent! That's a huge improvement!

Am I understanding this correctly? So for a 5 gallon batch I need 8 gallons of water. Ideally If I am mashing 12.5lbs of grain then I should mash with 16 quarts of water and fly sparge with the same to get the 1:1 strike/sparge ratio. This should give me a 1.28qt/lb water grain ratio. Which should in term produce a first running gravity of about 1.094 initially?

Yes.

Plus any additional water to top up the kettle. Your sparge efficiency should be the only variable. Once you have full conversion (the gravity doesn't keep rising) you can proceed with sparging. Once your runnings drop to 1.032 (8 P), stop adding water and let the grain bed run dry. Your final runnings should be about 1.020 (5 P).

[TAHammerton]

Thanks brewfun!

I was thinking about the calibration brew discussed and I thought I would try to brew the same beer 3 times- each time refining the process. That way I can really fine tune my settings and procedures. But I do want to have something decent to drink. So I thought about doing a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale Clone. I made up a recipe and saved a copy to the could as "SNPA Clone Classic Recipe" also pasted below (I could not figure out how to embed the recipe). I was also thinking maybe of trying the first two batches with a single hop variety, maybe Citra and Galaxy to better understand the hop flavours and aromas. The third batch would be an attempt to be as close as possible to the original. I thought the SNPA would be a good beer recipe for this experiment as it is a simple recipe representative of what people brew, is widely available and I don't know anyone who does not like it. It could be the standard that all homebrewers calibrate to.

Anyone else interested in brewing the recipe and sharing their results and experiences?

Also anyone want to check the recipe and procedure and suggest improvements? It is not my creation - it is based on a recipe by Beerfan on Northern Brewer forum - I just plugged it into BeerSmith with my set-up and local ingredients.

SNPA Clone Classic Recipe
American Pale Ale
Type: All Grain Date: 01 May 2014
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.00 gal Brewer: Tom Hammerton
Boil Size: 6.12 gal Asst Brewer: 
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: Tom 10gal mash tun V2
End of Boil Volume 5.72 gal Brewhouse Efficiency: 67.00 %
Final Bottling Volume: 5.01 gal Est Mash Efficiency 73.7 %
Fermentation: Ale, Two Stage Taste Rating(out of 50): 30.0
Taste Notes: 
Ingredients
 
Ingredients Amt Name Type # %/IBU
10 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 91.7 %
14.4 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 2 8.3 %
0.38 oz Magnum [12.20 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 3 16.1 IBUs
0.50 oz Perle [8.60 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 4 11.6 IBUs
0.88 oz Cascade [9.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 5 10.1 IBUs
1.88 oz Cascade [9.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 6 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg California Ale (White Labs #WLP001) [35.49 ml] Yeast 7 -

 
Beer Profile
 
Est Original Gravity: 1.053 SG Measured Original Gravity: 1.053 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.011 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.011 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.4 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 5.5 %
Bitterness: 37.8 IBUs Calories: 175.9 kcal/12oz
Est Color: 8.9 SRM 
Mash Profile
 
Mash Name: Single Infusion, Medium Body Total Grain Weight: 10 lbs 14.4 oz
Sparge Water: 3.80 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F Tun Temperature: 72.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.20
Mash Steps Name Description Step Temperature Step Time
Mash In Add 15.50 qt of water at 168.8 F 152.0 F 60 min
Mash Out Heat to 168.0 F over 5 min 168.0 F 10 min

 
Sparge Step: Fly sparge with 3.80 gal water at 168.0 F
Mash Notes: Simple single infusion mash for use with most modern well modified grains (about 95% of the time).
Carbonation and Storage
 
Carbonation Type: Bottle Volumes of CO2: 2.3
Pressure/Weight: 3.94 oz Carbonation Used: Bottle with 3.94 oz Corn Sugar
Keg/Bottling Temperature: 70.0 F Age for: 30.00 days
Fermentation: Ale, Two Stage Storage Temperature: 65.0 F

[npg]

Poorly crushed grain will affect your efficiency, as does pH and awful water.

Munich water is terrible, so it gets boiled for an hour, then racked the next day.   You want the mash pH reading at room temperature.  No need to make things complicated . Best is a pH meter with ATC.

I'm sure you'll get to the bottom of this...

[KernelCrush]

Its about time for a Big Thank You to all who helped.  Karma to all.  It gone from abysmal to Whoa Nellie.  It was the crush from the start.  Sieve testing was the fix but I use all the other info from this thread every brewday now.   I will post a pic next time I crush.  If anyone uses the Crankenstein 3D try the third click down from finest.

[tom_hampton]

Hey kc,

Glad it all worked out.

[KernelCrush]

Learned a lot along the way, Thanks to you.  The search continues..

[Gwion]

Great thread. I'm sure it will all make sense when i read it another 85 times! 

2nd attempt at all grain boiling now. Finer mill this time. Tried to stick to the 1:1 suggestion but checked temp 30min into mash; had dropped to 52 (+/-) degC. Strike at 67C. Added hot water to bring it up tp 66C again and extended mash by 15min (75min total). Still ended up with extremely poor efficiency. App was telling me expected OG of around 1050 but came out into boiler at 1022! 

Definitely need to check water quality (rain water in Limestone country so quite hard). But seriously, can water effect efficiency so dramatically? Am i losing a lot of efficiency because of rapid loss of temp at strike? Using 80L commercial esky (cooler) for mash tun, 70L stainless pot for hot kettle and 100L stainless pot for boiling wort.

Sorry to barge in. This is my first post but i did read this thread before going at my second attempt.

No big deal to make a light beer on my second attempt (brought OG up with dextrose last run) but would really like to get efficiency up. Only way i can make the app meet my results is to set total efficiency setting to around %40!

Anyhoo. I'll re-read the thread a few times before my next run (two weeks time).

Thanks for any further tips beyond what's already posted. I'm in Tasmania, by the way.

Cheers.

[npg]

There are numerous factors that could be at play here.

• mill:  this has been covered already.  you may want to try it with already crushed grain - just to make sure and eliminate causes.
• quality of the grain:  if your grain wasn't stored correctly it will lose diastatic power rapidly
• mash schedule:  not your strike but your actual target temperature should really be 65 Celsius.  You can do other things to affect conversion efficiency.  Ie step mashing.  Dough in with a thick ratio (1:2) at 35Celsius, then raise to 65Celsius after 15-30 minutes.  You could also take 1/3 of the grain and boil it for 5-10 minutes.  This will certainly release more starches and improve your efficiency.
• sparging:  incorrect sparging can lead to huge efficiency losses.  it is important not to create too much suction and compress the grain bed too much.  this will have huge impacts on efficiency.  try a lower flow-rate if necessary
• pH:  pH can have a far more dramatic effect on the end-result than temperature.  Ensure your mash is in the pH 5.3-5.6 range.

Hope this helps

[Gwion]

cheers. I'll look at those things for next time. Much appreciated.

PS[edit]: After the boil and into the fermenter/s OG=1038