Author Topic: Contest scoring  (Read 5448 times)

KernelCrush

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Contest scoring
« on: April 28, 2014, 07:03:23 AM »
Someone asked that I post these score sheets for all to understand better how scoring & results work in a beer competition.  I always thought high score wins, like most games/contests.  I also thought all golds automatically go to the BOS round.  Evidently not.  I did not get second round score sheets. This beer, despite the dismal score, was awarded a gold in a 500 entry contest.  They don't reveal the entry count per category, but the 2nd place winner in 2A was a BJCP National Judge and won 3 other medals in the contest.  I am further confused by the electronic results I saw before the winners list came out that are pasted below. 
2A  => BOS 1st Rnd1
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 01:12:24 PM by KernelCrush »

Offline brewfun

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Re: Contest scoring
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2014, 10:03:06 PM »
Which contest were these for? **Edit: KC answered in a PM and it's a respected, nationally advertised event.

I always thought high score wins, like most games/contests.  I also thought all golds automatically go to the BOS round.  Evidently not.  I did not get second round score sheets.

Which second round? The BOS? There usually are not score sheets for BOS because it is a side by side comparison based on ideals of the style, not the individual example.

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This beer, despite the dismal score, was awarded a gold in a 500 entry contest. 

Again, I'm not quite following. Dismal? This score represents "generally within the style parameters with minor flaws." In other words, a very good beer. In fact, the best in it's category. That's pretty dang good!

Entrants often place way too much emphasis on the score given. In this case, they agreed. What really matters are the comments and your overall place in the category.

What they found was acetaldehyde and in both cases, it was low (faint/subtle) but perceptible. With both judges, the flaw had a single correction point and was not related to contamination, which could have been inferred by the tartness.

Maybe the beer was fermented at 50 F, given a 5 day diacetyl rest at 65 F and lagered at 40 to 30 F for 40 days. But they still perceived that beer in that manner, on that day. Obviously, they had harsher criticism for the rest of the pack.

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They don't reveal the entry count per category,

On the cover sheet, there is a space for the ordinal number of your entry in that flight. Did they not fill it out?

« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 05:23:50 AM by brewfun »
Beer Appreciation is the space between pints.

KernelCrush

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Re: Contest scoring
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2014, 03:24:20 AM »
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Which second round?

I have other score sheets from other contests that are stamped 'push to second round' and they returned 2 sets of score sheets for the same beer.

pasted below is from the email from the competition organizer for this competition.  Some do a round 2 and some don't?

The first and second round score sheets for all entries have been scanned, uploaded to Reggie and should be accessable to all entrants through your individual accounts.


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On the cover sheet, there is a space for the ordinal number of your entry in that flight. Did they not fill it out?
We did not get a cover sheet.  They use  reggiebeer.com to report results.

I've only entered maybe 6 beer contests, and I really don't know how they work...I thought the medal placement was descending based on high score.  It seems that's not the case, that its really a subjective placement by the judges and has nothing to do with the scores.  And all golds don't automatically advance.

I was disappointed with the score number only cause I can only compare it to other sheets I have received.  I always thought you had to be in the high 40's to medal.

Offline brewfun

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Re: Contest scoring
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2014, 06:10:05 AM »
I have other score sheets from other contests that are stamped 'push to second round' and they returned 2 sets of score sheets for the same beer.

pasted below is from the email from the competition organizer for this competition.  Some do a round 2 and some don't?

In a contest like that one, the "First Round" is a set of prelims before the final round. The competition website gives four "Pre-judging" dates. That seems like the "first round" to me.

Prelims reduce the entries in larger categories like IPA that may get 30 entries or more to something more manageable like 10. The newer trend is to split a flight into several panels for queued judging and then have a mini BOS for the best two or three beers from each flight. While neither method is perfect, prelims can give you two score sheets.

Often, only a beer that DOESN'T pass prelims gest scored, while those that pass simply move on. This actually encourages judges to be more selective on which ones to hold back.

Your category was light lager. It typically has fewer entries and might not've been prelim'd. I'd contact the organizer to ask if it was.

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I've only entered maybe 6 beer contests, and I really don't know how they work.

I think you should volunteer for one. At least steward, but eventually judge. Not only will you learn about how competitions work but also about what other examples of beer styles taste like. It will improve your own self evaluation, too.  Nearly all contests need volunteers. Judging is a learned and mentored skill. You'll be paired with more experienced judges while you learn.

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..I thought the medal placement was descending based on high score.  It seems that's not the case, that its really a subjective placement by the judges and has nothing to do with the scores.  And all golds don't automatically advance.


If the organizer used a combination of Prelims AND queued judging, that'd be unusual. The posted rules indicate only Prelims were used. Again, I'd contact the organizer to find out.

I didn't see anything in the contest rules to say high score or first place in category doesn't advance to BOS. In fact, I've never been at a contest where the best from each category didn't end up on the BOS table.

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I was disappointed with the score number only cause I can only compare it to other sheets I have received.  I always thought you had to be in the high 40's to medal.

Nope.

I've dealt with judges who refused to write much of anything and scored quite low. One wine judge missed the point entirely, with his worst sheet merely saying "contaminated" and gave it a 0. That was a hard flight to judge.

Judging standards typically require the scores to be within 7 points of each other. Sometimes I just have to ride it out with a low scoring judge and then make sure the best beers get the highest placement. In the above case, I gave up and scored appropriately.

I can safely tell you that scores in the 40's are rare for most judges, including me. With homebrew, I have awarded exactly 5 scores of 45 or higher in my 20 year judging career. Each of those beers were world class and memorable.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 06:13:45 AM by brewfun »
Beer Appreciation is the space between pints.

KernelCrush

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Re: Contest scoring
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2014, 07:08:19 AM »
Yikes.  I have a lot to learn.  I need to volunteer next go round.  Thanks for explaining.

Offline jomebrew

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Re: Contest scoring
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2014, 09:00:53 AM »
I have been a steward at a couple dozen competitions including NHC.  Not only is there a lot of subjective scoring, there is often altering of the results in a flight because a judge liked one beer over another even though it scored lower.  Arrogance increases with experience and I have observed grand master judges impose their rank to steer a BOS towards a specific beer.

What I have found, over all, is that great beers rise to the top and while some don't make it as far as they should, a great beer really does have a chance.  Most recent competitions I have seen an elevation on the quality of homebrew.  The bar has been raised and a 31 today is, generally, a way better beer than a 31 five years ago. 

There are a number of factors that can affect any one beer in a competition.  Especially comparing results from two competitions.   Usually, there is a difference in time and between competitions and the beers do change.  How the beer is handled getting to competitions and temperature control during transportation and storage before the competitions.  I have seen some with so many entries they can't all be refrigerated at the same time.

The folks organizing, executing and judging are regular folk just like us (though some have an elevated opinion of themselves).   Organizing a competition is tough and takes a lot of work by a bunch of people.  The spirit of the competitions is to provide useful feedback to the brewers to improve their beer and to rewards those that produced excellent example of to style.  Anytime a score sheet does not meet the standard of useful helpful feedback, the brewer should send a message to the judge.  They must put their email address on each score sheet. 

« Last Edit: May 05, 2014, 08:57:50 AM by jomebrew »

KernelCrush

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Re: Contest scoring
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2014, 12:14:32 PM »
I have seen some very very similar score sheets and comments come from both the BJCP sheets and the non-BJCP sheets.  I always thought it was part of the training process.   I have never seen more than a 1 point differential between judges on the same beer, so I kind of take the non BJCP sheet with a grain of NaCl.

I tried to send an email to 2 judges once on a mead contest.  The buggers used fake emails.  Got the mailer demon from both addresses.  Would these guys even remember a particular score sheet and/or entry anyway?  Not from the blackout but from a busy weekend.