just tested some of my bottled beers, they were bottle conditioned beers and I use RO water to brew with, added to the RO to give me a balanced profile. ok so now I tested total hardness on a bottle and it came out 300 , PH and alkalinity are vary low or I would say right where I expected them to be for a kolosch beer and the water I used but the hardness seams though the roof. I never did these tests before now and was wondering if anyone has done this to finished beers and what the TD hardness should be when using balanced water. thanks
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Todal hardness
- Thread starter all grain
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brewfun
Grandmaster Brewer
Most TDS meters work by conductance and use a formula to convert that to a number. Acidic liquids conduct easily, which means the TDS number goes higher. Plus, there's alcohol and carbonic acid to consider. All together, the TDS meter isn't a good tool for evaluating packaged beer.
I don't think that actual water hardness is impactful for brewing in ways that have become commonly thought. Rather, the Residual Alkalinity (RA), whether positive or negative, and it's impact on mash and wort pH is the most important consideration for flavor impact.
I make a Kolsch that is as delicate as anything from Koln. My water has a TDS of about 450. I have Calcium levels of 95 to 140ppm and carbonate in excess of 240ppm. Basically, look up Dortmund and that's pretty close to my water. I only adjust my pH to bring down the RA by using acidulated malt and a tiny amount of Phosphoric acid. I don't add any extra minerals.
On the other end of the spectrum, I've brewed with water that's essentially snow melt; only about 30 ppm total. In that case, I sometimes added the minerals that tilted the RA towards the flavor profile I wanted. Again, acidulated malt played a part in achieving mash pH with very light colored beers.
I don't think that actual water hardness is impactful for brewing in ways that have become commonly thought. Rather, the Residual Alkalinity (RA), whether positive or negative, and it's impact on mash and wort pH is the most important consideration for flavor impact.
I make a Kolsch that is as delicate as anything from Koln. My water has a TDS of about 450. I have Calcium levels of 95 to 140ppm and carbonate in excess of 240ppm. Basically, look up Dortmund and that's pretty close to my water. I only adjust my pH to bring down the RA by using acidulated malt and a tiny amount of Phosphoric acid. I don't add any extra minerals.
On the other end of the spectrum, I've brewed with water that's essentially snow melt; only about 30 ppm total. In that case, I sometimes added the minerals that tilted the RA towards the flavor profile I wanted. Again, acidulated malt played a part in achieving mash pH with very light colored beers.
I tested the total hardness with strips not a meter. The TDS meter you speak of is for" total dissolved solids" witch are great for checking water purity but I'm not sure just what the strip test for total hardness is telling me or if it works for testing finished beers. anyone know if the strips are good for testing hardness in carbed beer? or if they are even accurate. My hopes are that I do not have to go to the store and test some of there beer, its so much more expensive then mine.
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I'm not sure what you're looking for by testing finished beer.
I use RO water from the store and test for TDS to make sure the membrane has been serviced. TDS has been around 15. The particular store I go to has a good maintenance schedule.
With some exceptions (Pilsners come to mind) beer needs hard water from the mineral additions and from the grains. As brewfun mentioned, RA is the goal based on the beer style.
I test my finished product with my taste buds!
I use RO water from the store and test for TDS to make sure the membrane has been serviced. TDS has been around 15. The particular store I go to has a good maintenance schedule.
With some exceptions (Pilsners come to mind) beer needs hard water from the mineral additions and from the grains. As brewfun mentioned, RA is the goal based on the beer style.
I test my finished product with my taste buds!
brewfun
Grandmaster Brewer
all grain said:
Ah! OK...
TDS is about total solids, while hardness is about Ca and Mg ions. Conductive TDS meters don't accurately measure some dissolved components, like sugars, though.
Hardness strips are measuring mostly Ca and Mg, but are also effected by some acids that are created by mineral content. Your test strips are measuring the malt minerals and might also be reacting to a few acidic components, too.
I don't think any one reading is going to tell you much. Taking comparative readings of other beers would help create a range of expected levels. I've found some online discussions that compare homebrew to commercial beers. The commercial examples were pale ales and IPA, which had a TDS range of 700 - 900 according to the poster.
Ok all, I just typed up a few paragraphs and LOST THEM while hitting the wrong key so I will make this short.
In order to control a process one must understand said process. in order to do this, information needs to be gathered and recorded. what I see is lots of measurements on the front side but little going on with the exception of PH, ABV, and taste on the finished beer. just thinking that there maybe some other measurements out there to record and keep in order to understand the process better and make better beer. Sorry if I'm gettin to out there.
In order to control a process one must understand said process. in order to do this, information needs to be gathered and recorded. what I see is lots of measurements on the front side but little going on with the exception of PH, ABV, and taste on the finished beer. just thinking that there maybe some other measurements out there to record and keep in order to understand the process better and make better beer. Sorry if I'm gettin to out there.
brewfun
Grandmaster Brewer
Excellent, All Grain! Excellent!
You're very correct that most of the measurements are on the front end. This is the only place where a brewer can have critical control points to effect the beer. Both quality and repeatability depend on this control. No beer can be any better than the weakest point in the process. I think it's cool that you're going down this path.
White Labs offers lab services to commercial breweries. I attached the PDF. Many of the microbial standards are something you can duplicate in a home brewery. I know there are instructions about making specific growth media out there.
Pre batch, we measure TDS and pH of our source water, as well as our heated water. We compare that reading to our spreadsheet (Bru'n Water) and make any last minute adjustments with Phosphoric acid to balance the RA.
Pre fermentation, we measure gravity, pH, dissolved O2 and temperature. During fermentation, we measure gravity and pH. Occasionally, we are able to do some microbial plating at various points in the process. Post fermentation, we measure gravity, pH and O2. These are all direct measurements.
Calculated measurements are alcohol, calories and real attenuation. At packaging we measure gravity, pH and O2.
The rest is sensory. Through various points in the process, we're evaluating diacetyl, esters, bitterness, color, turbidity, carbonation and sulfur. Once the beer is packaged, myself and most other breweries have a "torture shelf" where beer is subject to heat and other poor storage conditions to accelerate aging. Mostly, I'm looking for diacetyl and oxidation artifacts in these, but I'm also testing for any off flavors or signs of contamination.
I hope that gives you a guide towards the kinds of measurements that'll be useful for you. Except for dissolved O2, I think they're all pretty easy to accomplish.
You're very correct that most of the measurements are on the front end. This is the only place where a brewer can have critical control points to effect the beer. Both quality and repeatability depend on this control. No beer can be any better than the weakest point in the process. I think it's cool that you're going down this path.
White Labs offers lab services to commercial breweries. I attached the PDF. Many of the microbial standards are something you can duplicate in a home brewery. I know there are instructions about making specific growth media out there.
Pre batch, we measure TDS and pH of our source water, as well as our heated water. We compare that reading to our spreadsheet (Bru'n Water) and make any last minute adjustments with Phosphoric acid to balance the RA.
Pre fermentation, we measure gravity, pH, dissolved O2 and temperature. During fermentation, we measure gravity and pH. Occasionally, we are able to do some microbial plating at various points in the process. Post fermentation, we measure gravity, pH and O2. These are all direct measurements.
Calculated measurements are alcohol, calories and real attenuation. At packaging we measure gravity, pH and O2.
The rest is sensory. Through various points in the process, we're evaluating diacetyl, esters, bitterness, color, turbidity, carbonation and sulfur. Once the beer is packaged, myself and most other breweries have a "torture shelf" where beer is subject to heat and other poor storage conditions to accelerate aging. Mostly, I'm looking for diacetyl and oxidation artifacts in these, but I'm also testing for any off flavors or signs of contamination.
I hope that gives you a guide towards the kinds of measurements that'll be useful for you. Except for dissolved O2, I think they're all pretty easy to accomplish.
The malt adds a lot of minerals to beer. In the following link, a can of Heady Topper was sent to Ward Labs for the minerals test many of us get on our water. Very high levels of Ca++ and Mg++
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/heady-topper-results-ward-labs-481031/
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/heady-topper-results-ward-labs-481031/