Question about "Loss to trub and chiller"

I was just wondering how this value affects everything else in Beersmith.

What I expect it to do:
I want to make a 19L batch, but I lose 2L to trub and plate chiller. I would expect that putting 2L in this field would mean that it would lower my predicted OG because I'm losing 2L of wort. I would then have to increase my grains to compensate for this loss.

What actually happens:
It adds two liters of water to my "total water needed" and "sparge", but doesn't do anything else.

To have the intended effect, it seems that I have to set this value to zero and manually increase my batch size to 21L.

Am I thinking this wrong or is this a bug in the software?

Thanks!

Welcome to the often confusing subject of Brewhouse Efficiency. 

The effects of adding loss to trub & chiller are exactly as you described, plus at least one more: BeerSmith adjusts your mash efficiency upward to maintain the OG.

Brewhouse Efficiency is the total percentage of potential sugars that make it into the fermenter. In other words, "How much of what I make will actually become beer?"

Your example essentially has 10% loss to trub and chiller. So, your Brewhouse Efficiency can never be more than 90% since 10% of your sugars never get to the fermenter.

From there, you have to reduce the efficiency further to account for mash efficiency.

If you increase the batch size (which is measured in the fermenter, not the kettle), BeerSmith will lower the gravity.

When you add loss to trub, BeerSmith still uses the Brewhouse Efficiency number to calculate the percentage of total sugar that makes it to the fermenter. Loss to trub is a loss of efficiency for volume, but represents an INCREASE of efficiency for sugar extraction from the grain. Simply, to get the same percentage of Brewhouse Efficiency sugar to the fermenter, you must have an increase in mash efficiency to get there and offset the loss volume.

Thanks brewfun,

If I understand correctly, by setting the "Loss to trub and chiller" to 2L, my Est. Mash Eff. goes from 76% to 83.2%. So to take this into account, I should manually be reducing my total brewhouse efficiency to compensate? Do I lower it by the same amount? So in the end my Mash Eff. would be 83.2%, and my Brewhouse Efficiency will be 68.8%?

I think that what I'll do is, if I want a fermenter volume of 19L, set the "Loss to trub and chiller" value to 0, and set my batch size to 21L. The loss varies anyway depending on how much hops I use. That way I'll always have enough wort, and I can use the BK volume to calculate my efficiency instead of fermenter volume. It may not be true Brewhouse efficiency, but I think it will help me get more consistent.

Does this make sense?

kickz28 said:

I think that what I'll do is, if I want a fermenter volume of 19L, set the "Loss to trub and chiller" value to 0, and set my batch size to 21L.

Click to expand...

That's using kettle volume as the yield. In that way, your brewhouse efficiency is the same as the mash efficiency. This doesn't tell you anything about the yield to the fermenter. You get exactly the same information from your post-boil volume.

Have you considered using chase water? Either a "T" fitting & valve or just the chiller discharge water pointed back into the kettle just as you feel you have everything out of the kettle. On the fermenter side, you simply stop flow when the wort lightens color a shade.

Done quickly, chase water is pretty effective. It's what pro's do. It will certainly help your consistency and yield.

brewfun said:

Have you considered using chase water? Either a "T" fitting & valve or just the chiller discharge water pointed back into the kettle just as you feel you have everything out of the kettle. On the fermenter side, you simply stop flow when the wort lightens color a shade.

Done quickly, chase water is pretty effective. It's what pro's do. It will certainly help your consistency and yield.

Click to expand...

That's neat. How does the trub usually get dealt with at a brewery?




This article seems to suggest whirlpool tanks are most common:
http://morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/library/backissues/issue1.4/barchet.html

Does the trub really settle into a cone while the wort is spinning?

grathan said:

That's neat. How does the trub usually get dealt with at a brewery?

Does the trub really settle into a cone while the wort is spinning?

Click to expand...

A whirlpool is the standard. It takes advantage of the Tea Leaf paradox. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_leaf_paradox

Depending on how much of the trub is hop seems to dictate how tightly the trub pile forms. They always break up near the end of the chill cycle. DIPAs are notorious for clogging heat exchangers. I always have to run a cleaning cycle after making DIPA.

There are other strategies for dealing with large amounts of trub, like strainers, hop backs and centrifuges. The latter becoming more popular as the price is declining. Which to choose will depend on the brewhouse design and the profit gained by adding the equipment. I don't have any of these because I can't yield even one more barrel on most batches. My tanks are full, so the cost savings would be measured in years, if not decades.

The attached picture is a pretty typical cone emerging with about 60 gallons of wort left in the kettle.

If a brewer's only goal was DIPA with long cold chills while stirring. Do you think a pile would still form, or would the sludge be flat out like a pancake?

I'm not sure what "long cold chills" is unless we're talking winter or the flu....

Hops don't pile tightly. Not enough sticking power. So, lots of them are always a mess near the end of knock out. But for most of the run, the wort is pretty clear.