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Adjusting pH using Carbonic Acid???

Chris Roe

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Hey everybody,

First timer, about to venture into brewing, and I have a question.  ...I have gone through the book "How to Brew," and have searched this site for opinions, but have found none specific to my question.  I have a VERY experienced "brewing friend" who has given me his opinion so far, but I'm also interested in what the folks on here think; there seems to be a TON of quality collective knowledge on here.

Planning on brewing a Hefeweizen, BIAB with DME.

My water is from an underground source. Pertinent analysis is:

pH = 7.8
Alkalinity (total) = 211
Hardness (total as CaCo3) = 220
Calcium = 71
Magnesium = 11
Sulfate = 7.4
Sodium = 8.7
Chloride = 18
TDS (if folks are curious) = 310

My comment to my friend was, "If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right - the first time."  So... knowing my pH is a bit high, my question to him - and to you all - is, can I bring down the pre-mash water pH to around 7, using Carbonic Acid (dissolving CO2 into my tap water) instead of having to add brewing salts?  Will that mess anything up; i.e. off flavors???

And yes, I have a "scientific" background, so I very well may be over-thinking/analyzing things already, but - I want to do it right.

Thanks for any thoughts/opinions!

Chris
 
I don't know if you consider this brewing salts but, this is what I do. In Beersmith go to Ingredients and pick Water. Add your water profile. You can figure bicarbonates by multiplying Alkalinity by 1.22. Then go to Tools and pick the Water Profile Tool. Pick your water you added as the Base and how much water you want to convert. Your doing a Hef so pick Munich as your Target Profile and click Calculate Best Additions. The Water Profile Tool will tell you what you need to add to get brewing water similar to Munich. I'm an All Grain Brewer and to control my pH during Mash I use "PH 5.2 Stabilizer". I'm sure you could use reduced amounts in a BIAB. I never been concerned to much about water pH what I'm concerned about is Mash pH. In the Water Profiles you'll notice that your pH falls about the same as every other brewing water. The example I used of Munich has a pH of 8. I just don't know if this relates to do BIAB and DME. Kind of like instant coffee vs expresso.
 
I also brew with very alkaline water. The last batch I did the strike water measured pH 8.8. I added the 5.2 buffer and it came down to 6.0 The actual mash stabilised at pH 5.4. I highly recommend it and I think they sell it in every homebrew store.
 
Original water Ph is largely irrelevant. It's mash Ph that matters. Grains will lower Ph. The darker the grain, the more Ph reduction. Your water actually looks pretty good.

If you really wanted to work it, you could reconstitute your DME, and then check final wort pH without adjustment.
The down and dirty approach would be to just add a bit of CaCl2 to lower Ph since your making a hefeweizen with very light grains. Difficult to know how much though.

I would not recommend carbonic acid, as it will significantly change the mouthfeel. There are better ways to lower Ph.

Ph stabilizer is controversial as to its effectiveness. Google it for a wide variety of opinions. IMHO some folks look at a reduced mash Ph compared to the original water Ph and declare that the product works, when in reality its simply the grains doing their job.
 
I appreciate the replies so far... keep them coming - it helps me learn!

Thanks for the point on the "mouth-feel" issue; I was wondering if it would affect anything, given I've found NOTHING with regards to using Carbonic Acid in all my - albeit limited so far - reading and research.  ...if it was a "good" technique, my guess is many folks would already be doing it.

My concern over the 7.8 was the fact that - indeed - I'm "light" grains; would I get enough of a pH drop to bring everything down between 5.2 and 5.5?  My worry is that if I simply use the 7.8, my mash pH ends up in the low- to mid-6's, and my problems simply compound from there.

Chris
 
Oh, and I played around with the BeerSmith2 trial, and did as suggested.  Pretty cool program, but all it did was calculate the difference (mathematical difference) between the two profiles.  ...I can do that in my head!  LOL!  ...was it supposed to do something different?  Did I miss something?

Thanks!

Chris
 
The numbers you've provided don't quite add up correctly. Are they based on a water report? if so, they represent averages. I'd recommend sending a sample to Ward Labs to get a true picture of your water profile. If you're in a drought prone area, do this a couple of times for a year to see the seasonal changes.

As stated, your water will create an all pale malt mash at pH 6.8. This is due to the buffering power of your water and not the starting pH. So, you do need some acidification to reach appropriate mash pH.

Distilled water will absorb enough CO2 from the atmosphere to lower its pH to 5.5. This alone isn't enough to buffer a mash though, and additional minerals to buffer will nullify the effect.

Carbonic acid is laminated into the water and not binding with other minerals. It then reassociates as CO2 relatively quickly, which is why it makes pleasantly fizzy drinks, like beer. Lamination is time, temperature and pressure related. At atmospheric pressures, not much lamination occurs and as you heat the water, even less.

That said, CO2 is used in the brewhouse in some occasions. It's principle use is to help drive off oxygen from the water with the side benefit of helping chlorine gas out, too. Deaerated water is used for blending, cleaning and brewing but the CO2 isn't much of a factor.

Acid treatment for brewing is for only one thing: to counter the Residual Alkalinity (RA) of your water. Mineral adjustments should be for flavor impact and not to try to completely mimic a source city profile. Very hard water can make perfectly good beer when properly buffered.

The fastest and easiest method to adjust acidity is to use either phosphoric or lactic acid. With the water profile you provided, a dose of 2ml/gallon should create a mash pH of 5.3 with an all pale malt grist.

I'm not pounding through a bunch of calculations to give you that number. I'm using a pretty comprehensive spreadsheet called Bru'n Water. There is both a free and a donation based version available. This spreadsheet is more comprehensive than what's available in BeerSmith. BeerSmith is capable of tracking your mineral additions and contrasting water profiles, but it doesn't show pH or react dynamically with changes to grain in the recipe.
 
Plus 1 for the Bru'n Water recommendation! BeerSmith is a wonderful program for building, predicting, and modifying recipes. I love it. But, I use Bru'n Water for my water adjustments.

Check it out at:  https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/ 

Before you use Bru'n Water, READ THE INSTRUCTIONS on the first sheet. Then READ THE INSTRUCTIONS again. It takes a bit of brain sweat, but it's worth it! The free version is great. The donation version is better.

Brewfun, I assumed CO2 would bubble out of the mash when it's heated. Is that what you're saying when you say it "reassociates as CO2 relatively quickly"? Sorry, I'm not very literate concerning chemistry.
 
durrettd said:
Brewfun, I assumed CO2 would bubble out of the mash when it's heated. Is that what you're saying when you say it "reassociates as CO2 relatively quickly"? Sorry, I'm not very literate concerning chemistry.

Yup!
 
Well... the primary fermentor is happily bubb-bubb-bubblin away in the corner next to me as I type this update.

So... right after I posted my last post, the little voice in my head said, "The water report is an average of previous tests, so I wonder what the pH is right NOW... I wonder if it truly IS 7.8 – right now?"  ...so I tested it.  Twice.  And came up with 7.2 both times.  Good enough for me!  ...I had numerous experienced people tell me "Just Brew It," so I did!

However, I made sure (as much as I could) to get everything else as "right and tight" as possible.

After a careful and thorough mashing, boiling, and cooling, my final 5 gal of wort had an OG of 1.048 (temp adjust).  The liquid yeast had been at room temp (70 deg F) for a few hours, was shaken well, and pitched when the wort was at 74 deg falling to 70.  Yeast CO2 started cranking about 12 hours later. 

All I can hope now - from my end - is that I was "sanitary" enough through the process!  With two cats and a dog - and what I THOUGHT was a really clean house - it is amazing how much pet hair seems to float around when you don't want it, and you're paying attention enough to notice!!!  LOL!  Time will tell! :)

Thanks for the input on this, and thanks for the link on Bru'n Water!!!

Now I only have one more question (for now), but I will start a new thread on that one if I need to after I do some searching!

Thanks again!

Chris
 
My well water is similar to that. I use 7ml of lactic acid in the strike water.

http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/lactic-acid-4-oz.html
 
Well the pH 5.2 works for me, but I guess it depends on your water. I cannot detect any saltiness or off-flavours from the addition.

My problem is that I have absolutely no idea what is in my water. I have spent many hours trying to chase down a water report from local government and have discovered it just does not exist (in a useful format). They publish only contaminants. All I could discover is that my my water has a pH of between 7.6 and 9.1 (last batch I measured 8.8 and previous 9.0) and total hardness is 17-69 mg/l (of what?!). So rather than shooting blindly in the dark I use the pH 5.2. I am not sure what else I can do. No-one at the local brew club has data either.

Suggestions?
 
TAHammerton said:
My problem is that I have absolutely no idea what is in my water.

Lava.

All I could discover is that my my water has a pH of between 7.6 and 9.1

Lava!

and total hardness is 17-69 mg/l (of what?!).

LAVA! You're on an island made of LA-FREAKIN-VA!!  :p ;D

I am not sure what else I can do. No-one at the local brew club has data either.

Suggestions?

You should send a sample every three months to Ward Labs. You'll get a useful and complete water report for brewing. and a better idea of how it changes over the course of a year.

https://producers.wardlab.com/BrewersKitOrder.php
 
Thanks Brewfun!

Unfortunately you can't just order from Hawaii. Have e-mailed and will try to call tomorrow.

My water comes from a combination of surface and well water which I think makes it wildly erratic (hence the wide range of numbers quoted by water dept.). We have a hurricane coming this weekend just to spice things up a bit too!

Is there any kind of home testing that can be done that is worthwhile?
 
TAHammerton said:
Thanks Brewfun!

You're welcome. And I'm glad you got the joke!

Unfortunately you can't just order from Hawaii. Have e-mailed and will try to call tomorrow.

Wow, really? That sucks. They don't ship to HI? It all is via regular parcel mail, with results via email.... Seems like an extra buck or two should cover it. I'm kinda incredulous about that, but don't know.

My water comes from a combination of surface and well water which I think makes it wildly erratic

So, no different than mine? hehe! There are three wells, plus surface water that feeds my brewery. We take a TDS reading of our strike water before every brew. By itself, TDS doesn't tell me anything. But, with water reports and experience, it does give me an idea of what water is coming my way and how to deal with it.

Sometimes, you can just call up the water district and talk to a chemist. They usually love beer and for the cost of a six pack, they'll not only spill their guts about the sources, but sometimes call you with a heads up that the source has changed.

Sorry about the coming hurricane. Be safe and protect the beer!  ;)
 
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