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Looking for thoughts, hopping and SmaSh beers

Pirate Point Brewer

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Dec 17, 2008
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Luna Pier, Michigan AKA - Pirate Point
We've been brewing SmaSh beers for the last several years. We really enjoy them but have found a few draw backs. When we drink a big box beer, We typically drink Modelo Especial.  We like because it is light and crisp. It doesn't have the sweetness or feel as heavy as say Bud or Miller High Life. And it has an OK kick. Please don't suggest the Lite versions of these two..... well you know, just please don't! :p    We used Modelo as a goal for our SmaSh beer. Clean, crisp, simple, and very lager like. For the most part we have achieved our goals with one draw back. If we use enough grain to get to get the OG up there, around 1.050, no matter how we mash, the beer is heavier than say our Modelo goal. We assume that like most, Modelo uses adjuncts to keep it light and cheap, yet still have the 6+ ABV.

The cheapest and easiest adjunct for us to use is Sugar. We have mostly avoided sugar in the past because of all of the horror stories about the taste effects and the one time we did use sugar, we used Corn Sugar or Dextrose to hopefully avoid the horror story taste. The entire recipe wasn't one we were too proud of, probably for many reasons. We were new brewers and many things didn't go exactly like we planned. We drank it, but we never tried to brew it again. That was more than a few years ago. Now we were searching for a way to amp up our SmaSh's without adding more grain or complications and come back to sugar.

We are told that sugar will ferment completely and does not add sweetness to the beer. Corn Sugar or Dextrose is not easily available except at brew suppliers. When compared to the cost per pound of bulk 2-row, it's pretty expensive. Cane Sugar or Sucrose, is easily available at the discount grocery and is significantly cheaper than even the grain. BUT ... all of the horror stories about bad tastes center on Cane Sugar. So we did a lot of reading. We learned that Cane Sugar or Sucrose is a disaccharide and that the yeast has to produce extra enzymes or what ever, to break the disaccharide into monosaccharaides. We though these additional yeast byproducts may be the cause of the horror stories. Further reading showed that bakers and candy makers "invert" sugar to break it down into the two monosaccharaides, Glucose and Fructose. We conjectured that use of an invert syrup made from cheap cane sugar might prevent the yeast from doing the extra work and thereby prevent the possible bad tastes. I won't detail this, its quick and easy, done while the mash and boil are taking place so no addition to you brew day. AND  We think it WORKED!!! It's been used several times now at 25% of our gravity units. With No residual sweetness or objectionable back taste.
We now have a simple SmaSh lawnmower beer with an attitude!! That's with AB V's of 7%!

So, where am I going with all this.... IBU's. We aren't the typical new craft beer Hop Heads. There is defiantly a limit to us between good beer and carbonated hop tea!! Our comfort zone for bitterness lies at BU/GU's of .5 and below. We've mostly moved away from late additions or dry hopping as they add cost and an unpleasant to us grassy taste. We get our most cost effectiveness and a very smooth hop flavor using First Worting type of techniques. That was until these last few brews using 25% invert syrup or Sugar as an adjunct. The last thing we expected was to feel that our brews, with BU/GU's of .5 or less were over hopped. Not terrible, very drinkable, similar to a Bell's Pale Ale. But more hop than planed or expected.

So here's where we are getting too. If we calculate our BU/GU of .5 using our brew's og of 1.050 as we did, it seems over hopped. Should we subtract the sugar's GU numbers and then calculate BU/GU?? For our brews we would the be using an og of 1.025 rather than 1.050 for our hop calculations. The rational is that the sugar theoretically is fermented 100% and does not contribute sweetness, and maybe??? therefor should not need to be bittered?? We're not sure. As much as we say we aren't Hop Heads, we don't like the sweet beers either. That's what got us here with the SmaSh brews.

So we asking your thoughts before we brew another batch. The kids will be home this weekend so we wont be brewing. We have a couple of weeks so what do you guys think??  Should we calculate our BU/GU at an og of 1.025 or the full wort og of 1.050??
 
Haven't had Bells Pale Ale yet. It's not single hop though.
Same with Especial.

There is more to perceived bitterness than just isomerzed hop acids. And every hop strain is different. What does your recipe look like?

I've only started to look at Bitterness Ratio recently (yesterday), but wouldn't read too much into it. 0.5 sounds like it wouldn't be much different than 0.3 and looking back on the Brew Log I would think Hop variety had more impact that IBU.

The recipe on BrewToad has 14 IBU which seems really light.
https://www.brewtoad.com/recipes/modelo-especial-clone-2012-03-17-version


The use of Corn Starch is also very interesting as an adjunct.

I like Hallertauer over the listed Summit/Saaz though. 2oz at 60min and no late addition as you were saying.

Another thing you might try is a product called Clarity Ferm. It does clear out the beer and lets subtle flavors shine through.

Also the use of White Labs Mexican Lager yeast WLP940 is probably worth trying out.






 
Lots of questions!

1. BU/GU ratio is really about the residual malt characterisics left behind and how they balance with the hop bitterness.  So, absolutely you should leave the sugar out of that equation.  The sugar is adding nothing except alcohol to the finished beer.

2.  Invert sugar.  Waste of effort.  The sugar will actually invert during the boil.  There is enough acidity in the wort to do the job.  Just add the sugar directly to the boil kettle.  Besides, its not necessary to invert it anyway.  the beer will be fine without the chemical transformation. 

NOTE:  Keep in mind, that hop utilization falls with wort a rise in wort gravity and vice versa.  So, if you are switching to using sugar and are adding the sugar late in the boil, you will get higher hop utilization than expected.  BS2 is suppose to compensate for this effect (and does for MALT), but it has a bug and does not do it right for sugar additions.  So, you need to delete the sugar from the recipe, and add your hop to your desired IBUS and BU/GU.  Then add the sugar to the recipe...after you add the sugar, ignore the hop data (it will be wrong). 

NOTE2:  BS2 also adds the sugar to the preboil gravity, even if you set it as a late addition.  This is another bug.  so, again delete the sugar and make note of your preboil information.  then add the sugar back to the recipe before you print your brewsheet.  its a bit of a pain, but I've been caught by this several times.


3.  Corn starch is a starch.  So it must be mashed.  probably a "duh!", but thought I'd point that out. 

4.  Mashing starch adjuncts (rice, corn, etc) provides the same maltose and residual starches that barley malt does.  the results of mashing are governed by the ENZYMES not the source of the starch.  So, using malt-enzymes always results in maltose.  you will have the same residual dextrines, and body from these adjuncts that you get from malt.  The difference comes in that these grains don't have the same malty flavors that malt does.  Rice in particular is nearly flavorless, and is dirt-cheap.  But, it still contributes body to the resulting beer in the same way that malt does.  So, it will NOT make a thin watery beer. 

5. BU/GU ratio is very important and I wouldn't dismiss it so quickly Grathan.  It is quite effective across a range of absolute starting gravities.  The difference between 0.3 and 0.5 is quite significant.  In a 1.050 beer that's the difference between a 25 IBU and a 13 IBU beer.  One is going to have a clear bitterness, and the other is going to be almost imperceptible (except by its absence).  It may not be the be-all-end-all of hop character in a beer.  But, it works quite well for comparing within styles, and even across a good range of styles with different SRMs.  So, it is definately a key recipe parameter to manage.

 
1. BU/GU ratio is really about the residual malt characterisics left behind and how they balance with the hop bitterness.  So, absolutely you should leave the sugar out of that equation.  The sugar is adding nothing except alcohol to the finished beer.

An interesting thought is how the alcohol will balance with the hops and malt in this beer.  7% is nothing to sneeze at, and with the very light flavor profile you are going for...the alcohol could change the balance of the beer flavor.  In other typical beers with this much SUGAR in them (eg Belgians) there is quite a bit of other flavors going on, and the hops are downplayed anyway. 

I've never really played in this flavor space.  But, I know under certain situations alcohol can cause a preceived sweetness. 

It would be a curious experiment to draw off some wort before you add the sugar and ferment it without the adjunct.  then compare the flavor perceptions of the two beers.  In theory  you could do several at different sugar percentages by splitting the boil into 1 gallon mini batches and adding different amounts of sugar to each gallon (0%, 10%, 15%, 20%, 25%).  Split your starter between them and see what you get---which you like the best. 



 
tom_hampton said:
5. BU/GU ratio is very important and I wouldn't dismiss it so quickly Grathan.  ,,,It may not be the be-all-end-all of hop character in a beer.  But, it works quite well for comparing within styles.

I'm not going to put words in Grathan's mouth, but I  think he may be referring to bitterness perception based on hop variety.

It's something I've harped on a lot. Though, I've not made it a stylistic concept (which is what BU:GU is about) rather one referring to hop utilization formulas. When traditional hop varieties are used for a classic style, the BU:GU ratio helps define the balance of the style.

Back to the topic at hand.

As for playing with sugars, it depends on the brewer's goals and procedures. The additional sugar of a Belgian accents the yeast stress, creating delightful artifacts, like esters. For an American Lager, the additional sugar lightens body and flavor without being warming.

I make an Imperial Pilsner in Spring that is designed to be a little bolder, but still have the characteristic refreshing, balance expected of a Pilsner. Judicious use of sugar helps with boosting alcohol, but also lightens body, so it doesn't come off as an over hopped Helles Bock.

 
Thanks all for the comments so far!
From these, I can add some detail which may lead to further discussion (Much Appreciated!) And some questions that may lead someone with more knowledge and experience to start another topic.

Tom, Thanks as always for your inputs. I knew, from reading not from experience, that the acidity of the mash and the boil could/would invert the sugar. I went the syrup direction for the following reasons and concerns. Additional comments about these is gratefully requested!

1. Harsh cider like flavor from sugar additions.
I read about it in many texts and per above, with no experience or "science" to guide, I was concerned if bulk sugar was just added to the boil, it might not be inverted completely, thus leaving an additional tasks to the yeast. Per my stated fear that these additional tasks may be responsible for the objectionable cider like flavor. I should add that we are talking 25%+ by weight. I've personally never used more than 20% total adjuncts in any previous brew, so I went the syrup route to make me believe I was getting full inversion. Again, without a lab??? Maybe I am??? Maybe I'm not. So I went with what I felt would give the best result. Then maybe back off from there!

2. Effect on Color.
At 25%+ the adjunct can have a significant effect on beer color. The Belgian Candi's come in a rage of color. I realized that with very little effort, since my mash was a single malt 2-row with an sg of 1.029, I could shape the color of the finished beer by controlling the color of the invert syrup. I have over the last four batches, produced simple SmaSh ale's that range in color from very light straw to a fairly dark amber, with no noticeable flavor difference. For your laugh, I made the dark ones first because I didn't have a clue. They got lighter as I got better.

3. Beer color and Equipment Damage
I'm a home built electric brewer. Because I don't have 240 vac available in the kitchen without rewiring the house, I use two different 120 vac, 2000 watt heating elements. I'm cheap so they are the commonly available water heater element definitely NOT low watt density. I was very concerned about just adding dry bulk sugar to the wort as it was moving from sparge temp to boil for two reasons.
A. I might get a build up of undissolved sugar at the bottom of the kettle very close to the heating elements. If it was scorched by the elements, it may have an adverse effect and uncontrolled effect on the final color and taste of the beer.
B. I was afraid that the sugar would scorch and stick to the high watt density element causing it to quickly overheat and burn out. This may sound odd but I've had three instances with both Wheat and Rye where the increased gluten "Cooked" onto the elements and they burned right through where the scorched stuff was. For this reason, I go very easy with Wheat or Rye. I didn't know but didn't want to find out if sugar would do the same. When I rebuild, I'll mail order Low Watt Density elements. But why temp fate in the middle of a brew season???

4. Increase in Hop Utilization with decreased OG
I was very aware of this possibility but again had no "Science" on which to rely. Unmentioned in my original, even though I did use the full OG, I did decrease the the IBU 10% from the value that gave the desired BU/GU. My Next batch will e hopped at only the sg of the mash product.

5. Use of Corn Starch
I have no idea where in the heck that came from??? It certainly wasn't me ;D  Perhaps someone would start a new topic on its use. I can see that it would be an additional starch that would have to be added to the mash but.... it any quantity that sound like a lautering nightmare.
Maybe it would give the corn like sweetness to a Cream Ale, but I'd be afraid any quantity large enough would turn the mash into glue. I kow, Rice Hulls. Remember, I'm cheap. Why add what you don't need????

Anyway guys, thanks for your comments. Please add more thoughts if you have time.
 
Pirate Point Brewer said:
1. Harsh cider like flavor from sugar additions.

As with a lot of homebrew lore, it starts with a grain of truth that soon becomes infected philosophy.

As long as you're under 30%, and the rest of the grist is all malt, there shouldn't be any issues.

Basically, cidery flavors are a yeast nutrient issue. Starved of the proper nutrients, the yeast use an enzyme to break the sucrose molecule. This enzyme creates esters that have pineapple to ripe apple cider flavor. When oxidized, it takes on hard candy notes. In extreme cases, there are sulfur notes during primary fermentation.

Given a healthy pitch with the proper population and oxygenation, the yeast metabolize sucrose without the enzyme. As Tom pointed out, the invert process happens in the boil (takes about 20 minutes). But, I get what you're saying about color.

Any adjunct that dilutes malt nutrients can have the same effect on yeast. Without appropriate levels of nitrogen (FAN) and other trace minerals, the yeast resort o other methods of sugar consumption. Severely under pitching or very low nutrient levels result in yeast with poor cell walls that can only ferment glucose, then they stall.
 
Thanks Brufun,

Yep, We read the "Yeast" book too. We didn't pick up on the "OK up to 30% non grain". We have always read, and stayed, at or below 20% of any adjuncts because we're too cheap to add yeast nutrients and its attendant extra cost. Not to mention that our typical brew is very simple.

We are also aware from reading that proper oxygenation was also import if pushing the 20%. We have never felt it was an issue for us in the past because we are usually making simple all grain beers, but now that we're pushing 25%+ and intend to push past this, we bought a wand and regulator from Williams on a Christmas special last week, just to be sure. Will try it next brew.

We are aware from both reading and early brewing experience that under pitching can cause many odd taste issues. We are Mr. Malty devotes, and probably now error on the heavy side. We do harvest and reuse, but we aren't anal about it. For an 11 gal batch, we pitch 20 to 30 oz by volume of thick slurry assuming 60 billion cells per oz. We don't attempt to wash the yeast or create starters because we are lazy and cheap. We haven't gone more than 10 generations. Not because we've notice a problem, but because we only brew in the winter and often have more than one strain in use. So we don't brew enough beer to use it all. We do not keep the slurry more than 3 weeks. We pitch heavy assuming by our studies that over pitching is better than under pitching. We typically experience 1 hour or less lag times with the slurry. The "Absolute Beer Critic", my Princess and assistant brewer says the brews get better after the first generation. She's the best so she wins! (Don't argue with this point ..... I don't  :))

So that sums up where we are. We aren't contest brewers. We don't try to brew somebody else's beer to satisfy a judge we don't even know. We certainly don't disrespect those who do, they have brought much knowledge to our hobby that wouldn't have happened any other way. We try to sit down and talk about "What We Like" and then develop a recipe using all that we've learned to brew "Our" beers. Beers that "The Princess" and our friends says are good and like to help me drink because they've  never had one quite like that before. We attempt to do this at the lowest cost per brew as possible by getting as much as possible from each ingredient or piece of equipment.  We've enjoyed the hell out of pushing Smash beers as far as we can using every possible technique to get the most for very little!!

People like you and Tom and all the people on this forum make tremendous contributions to our efforts by sharing information and different perspectives far beyond what we could imagine on our own. At a "cost" we can happily afford! :)  You all very definitely "Give us the Most for Very Little!" Thanks for your input!
 
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