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Lack of Perceived Bitterness

TAHammerton

Grandmaster Brewer
Joined
Apr 4, 2014
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Location
Wellsboro, PA
I just put my IPA in the keg that was brewed 30 days ago. I took a sample after a couple of days as I am not good at waiting (for the carbonation to develop) and was surprised to find the beer did not taste bitter. I double checked by giving it to my wife to try (who hates very bitter beer such as Torpedo) and she loved it commenting it was not very bitter! This is a beer with a calculated IBU of 95.8! It has a wonderful aroma and hoppy taste but is more like a well balanced amber than a full on IPA when it comes to bitterness.  It is by no means a bad beer, just not what I was expecting. So what happened?

The hops have been stored in my freezer since they have been in my possession. Everything but the Citra and amarillo were in Oxygen purged packets from Northern Brewer. The Citra came from the local brewery and were vacuum packed in plastic - not sure if oxygen barrier. The Amarillo is from an Oahu Homebrew store in foil packet - not sure if oxygen flushed. The age of these hops is anybodys guess.

I did do half the bitterness as a FWH with 90 min boil and the other half as late additions. It also has not cleared very well and exhibits a distinct haze.

Here is the recipe:

BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Hop Tsunami 1.1 Brew
Brewer: Tom Hammerton
Asst Brewer:
Style: American IPA
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 6.24 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.46 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.00 gal 
Bottling Volume: 5.01 gal
Estimated OG: 1.066 SG
Estimated Color: 10.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 95.8 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 66.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 72.6 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt                  Name                                    Type          #        %/IBU       
1.00 tbsp            PH 5.2 Stabilizer (Mash 60.0 mins)      Water Agent  1        -           
12 lbs                Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)          Grain        2        86.5 %       
12.0 oz              Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM)            Grain        3        5.4 %       
9.0 oz                Caramel/Crystal Malt - 45L (60.0 SRM)    Grain        4        4.1 %       
9.0 oz                Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM)    Grain        5        4.1 %       
0.80 oz              Citra [14.50 %] - First Wort 90.0 min    Hop          6        43.6 IBUs   
0.70 oz              Citra [12.40 %] - Boil 20.0 min          Hop          7        16.8 IBUs   
0.50 oz              Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 20.0 min  Hop          8        8.2 IBUs     
0.50 tsp              Irish Moss (Boil 15.0 mins)              Fining        9        -           
0.70 oz              Citra [12.40 %] - Boil 10.0 min          Hop          10      10.1 IBUs   
0.50 oz              Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min  Hop          11      4.9 IBUs     
0.50 oz              Goldings, East Kent [5.80 %] - Boil 10.0 Hop          12      3.4 IBUs     
0.50 oz              Motueka [6.70 %] - Boil 10.0 min        Hop          13      3.9 IBUs     
0.50 oz              Citra [12.40 %] - Boil 2.0 min          Hop          14      1.7 IBUs     
0.50 oz              Goldings, East Kent [5.80 %] - Boil 2.0  Hop          15      0.8 IBUs     
0.50 oz              Motueka [6.70 %] - Boil 2.0 min          Hop          16      0.9 IBUs     
0.50 oz              Nelson Sauvin [11.70 %] - Boil 2.0 min  Hop          17      1.6 IBUs     
1.0 pkg              San Diego Super yeast (White labs #WLP 0 Yeast        18      -           
1.00 oz              Amarillo Gold [8.40 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Day Hop          19      0.0 IBUs     
1.00 oz              Citra [14.50 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days      Hop          20      0.0 IBUs     
1.00 oz              Nelson Sauvin [12.60 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Da Hop          21      0.0 IBUs     


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body
Total Grain Weight: 13 lbs 14.0 oz
----------------------------
Name                    Description                  Step Temperat Step Time   
Mash In                  Add 16.00 qt of water at 162. 150.0 F      75 min       
Mash Out                Add 5.99 qt of water at 211.4 165.0 F      10 min       

Sparge: Fly sparge with 2.66 gal water at 168.0 F


 
I FWH and use late addition hops to get what you have.  I don't like in your face bitterness so through experiments with FWH and late additions, with no additions during the actual boil until it's down to 5 minutes is what I've gone to.

FWHing tends to smooth out bitterness and keeps it from being "In your face".  I might just try your recipe.
 
Yep.  I was looking specifically to see if you FWH'd, and sure enough you did.  And only 0.8oz.  I think it really smooths it out, and I actually changed the default setting in BSmith to minus 10% from the standard/default of plus 10% for FWH. 

If you wanted more perceived bitterness, I would add a pure 60-minute addition. 
 
I've read (in a post by Denny Conn - I think) that the perceived bitterness of first-wort hops is equal to APPROXIMATELY the same quantity boiled for 1/3 the actual boil time. My very limited experience agrees.
 
I also recommend looking at your pH for proper expression of hop bitterness.  First, stop using the 5.2 stabilizer.  It does you no favors.  Then target your mash pH to 5.4.  Remember that bitterness comes from Alpha Acids.  You will get more into your beer with a higher pH.

Also, if I can offer some unsolicited advice, remember that you only get 2 things from hops: alpha acids & hop oils.  Alpha acids give you the bitterness and oils give you the flavor and aroma compounds.  IMO, the best way to get Alpha Acids into your beer is with a single 60 minute addition.  The best way to get oils into your beer is a post boil addition at about 170* for 30-45 minutes, and dry hopping.  The reason is that oils boil at much lower temperatures than water (wort).  So adding flavor/aroma additions in the boil result in boiling off a lot of the oils you want in your beer.

But you should try it both ways to see which you prefer.

Steve
 
I had another taste last night and now that there is some carbonation it seems to be helping the bitterness come through. Still to me it has the apparent bitterness of about 40 IBU or so. I was actually looking for something around 70 IBU to come through as I am well aware that FWH has lower perceived bitterness. But if you discounted the bitterness entirely from the FWH there is still 52 IBU left from the other additions.

Regarding pH, with the pH 5.2 buffer I get a mash pH of 5.4 and without it a pH 6.0. I can't get a water report and the composition varies greatly as is a mixture of ground and surface water so I am hesitant to mess with the water chemistry too much. I feel the buffer is fairly safe and does help somewhat. I do think the water chemistry does play into the bitterness issue.

The other thing is that this is my first time using the San Diego Super yeast - could that have an effect also?

I've had a long think about it and my guess it is a combination of the following:

Less available Alpha acids in the hops due to aging
Less utilization due to large amount of hops in kettle
Using First Wort Hopping
Water Chemistry
Yeast behaviour
No carbonation on first tasting

It does surprise me though that the perceived bitterness is knocked down to half of what was expected.
 
I was just playing with the displayed fields and discovered you can display bitterness calculations in Rager, Tinseth and Garetz. For the above recipe they were 103.2, 95.8 and 46 respectively. What I am tasting is a hell of a lot closer to 46 than 103 that's for sure! Anyone have any idea why the ranges are so big? How useful are the actual bitterness calculations if the range is 46-103, and the fact that the perceived bitterness may differ from that?

Anyone got on guidance on the subject?
 
The models vary because the author gave different weight or impact to the variables such as AA% and/or length of boil.  Tinseth seems to have the most math behind it. 

My analogy for the hops util % models is that of an economist's forecast for GNP.  No model will get it right every time, and each model is just a forecast estimate of the real number.  There is no "real" number for GNP.  There's way too many factors at play and most are estimated, at best.  Same with actual "real" bitterness, unless you send off samples of every brew. 

So you have to gradually learn "when I get a Tinseth IBU of 50, it tastes like this to me, and that's just right for my APA."  I keep the Tinseth and Rager numbers in my Top 12 Fields so I can see them all the time. 
 
You could go on and on about it. But without knowing how old the bittering hops were, there isn't really any point IMHO.
 
BSmith takes that into account with the Hop Aging Tool, if one cares to bother with it.  Frozen, vacuum-sealed hops are pretty much the norm in most areas. 
 
TAHammerton said:
I've had a long think about it and my guess it is a combination of the following:

Less available Alpha acids in the hops due to aging
Less utilization due to large amount of hops in kettle
Using First Wort Hopping
Water Chemistry
Yeast behaviour
No carbonation on first tasting

It does surprise me though that the perceived bitterness is knocked down to half of what was expected.

Good list, but if I were betting, I'd say more to do with lack of full boil hops rather than age.
How have your other bitter recipes turned out? If you're consistently getting flat hop perception I'd look at your water.
The generally negative consensus of 5.2 buffer is that it's not effective for the vast majority of people with water having any material alkalinity. In rare cases it does work, but there are better methods of lowering Ph.
5.2 adds a great deal of sodium.
You might try an experiment - pour a glass of your brew and add a small amount of gypsum.
How does this taste? Does it bring your hops forward?
 
Yes it is a real guessing game when you don't know how old your hops are. I stopped using Cascade as I felt I was getting very poor utilization and I read that it does not store very well.

I was trying something new by attempting to split the bitterness evenly between early and late hop additions. I certainly achieved the hop flavours I was looking for and it is a great beer, just not quite what I was aiming for.

The pH 5.2 does something for me as without it my Mash is ph 6.0 and with it I get pH 5.4. I think I am going to try using acidulated malt instead.

So a great learning experience - maybe one day I will know what the hell I am doing  ;D
 
Wow. That's a gnarly hop bill! Do you own a hop farm? If so, do you want to be my friend?
 
Yes that is 9 ounces of hops. I do not currently  own a  hop farm, but I  intend to in the future ;)
 
Well call me when you do!

Seriously now...

It looks like the vast majority of your hops were only boiled for 20 minutes or less. I wouldn't think you would get much bittering out of even the high AA hops in such a short boil. I've played around with various boil times and it seems to me that my best IPA's come from boiling the high AA hops for 60-90 minutes. then I just steep or dry hop the aromatics. My peasants pallet can't really discern the "in between" boil times. My basic philosophy is to use high AA hops for bittering and forget about their contribution towards bouquet, and use aromatic / low AA hops for the nose. 
 
myself I now do a 90 min boil for my IPA's.  Once the wort is at a full boil I add the bittering charge.  I also FWH just about every beer I brew.  Most of my hops are add post-boil in a whir-pool.  No science to what I do.  It is just what family. friends  & I  prefer the taste this way.  Also I like a drier beer or the IPA's, so I often use sugar.
 
This was an experiment in hop utilization. The theory was that I would get about half the utilization of a 60 minute boil in 20 mins. I was attempting to get half my bitterness from the late additions.

See below to know I had some reason for believing this  :)

http://www.realbeer.com/hops/research.html

Still a bit of an expensive experiment - I need to figure out how to get the hop flavour, aroma and bitterness without using 9oz of hops. I'll let you know if I ever figure it out - unified theory might come first!

If you want to dry and lighten your beer try using Honey as an adjunct. I love what it does and adds a subtle complexity to the flavour you don't get from sugar.
 
Have tried that to me it is not worth it.  Very little honey flavor left. Seems that most of the flavor gets blown off with the CO2, when added to the boil.  Just my opinion.  When do you add your sugars.  I add mine to secondary after primary fermentation has finished. You do get flavor from sugar.  I am a pastry chef by trade so I often make my own soft candi sugar, it is easy.  Cooking the sugar is what develops the flavor.  The darker the more flavor the sugar.  You can also add ingredients for additional flavors.  Some favorites are Hibiscus & Dandelion.  I got those ideas from a brewer over at Beer Borg. 
 
If I am trying to preserve the honey flavour I put into the primary after a couple of days when things are slowing down. If I am just trying to lighten then I add 15 mins before end of boil.
 
Have you ever tried Honey Malt?  Thinking about trying that malt out some more.  One thing that does not work well for honey flavor is priming with it.  Every-time I have done it I did not get any honey flavor.
 
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