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Off putting sweetness.

civolpe1982

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This would be the second batch of a "like" lighter beer where the results.  Both with a 2 row base.  Everything looked great on beersmith.  We used a pH stabilizer.  One of the beers was mashed at 149 for an hour (this being the first, we attributed it to a cheap thermometer)  This second we kept a better eye on the gravity and ran it until we reached our target of 1.046.  One mistake that we made on both was that we didn't get the mash to mash out temp before our first runnings (instead we heated our strike water to 168, rookie mistake).  Question is, would that cause an overly sweet beer?  What are some other factors that could factor into this off putting taste?  Thanks in advance!
 
That sounds like maybe it didn't fully attenuate to a level of dryness you'd expect from the style. The mash and strike temperatures are red herrings for the issue of under attenuation. The lack of a mash out and the low mash temperature should have helped dry the beer.

So, "sweetness" can come from a lot of issues. One part of light lager style beers is very high carbonation that helps to give it a dryer palate. A flat version of most light lagers is pretty sweet, but not cloying. Another issue could be that you didn't get enough bitterness from the hops and a third could be that you caramelized the malt sugars during the boil. None of these issues are exactly flaws, just refinements to your process. A delicate beer requires precision at all points.

A bit more detail could help us to pinpoint how to adjust the recipe or process.
 
brewfun said:
That sounds like maybe it didn't fully attenuate to a level of dryness you'd expect from the style. The mash and strike temperatures are red herrings for the issue of under attenuation. The lack of a mash out and the low mash temperature should have helped dry the beer.

So, "sweetness" can come from a lot of issues. One part of light lager style beers is very high carbonation that helps to give it a dryer palate. A flat version of most light lagers is pretty sweet, but not cloying. Another issue could be that you didn't get enough bitterness from the hops and a third could be that you caramelized the malt sugars during the boil. None of these issues are exactly flaws, just refinements to your process. A delicate beer requires precision at all points.

A bit more detail could help us to pinpoint how to adjust the recipe or process.

I wish I had the recipe on hand.  It was pretty high on ibu's for a pale ale, so I don't think thats an issue.  So your saying the fact that we didn't reach the mashout temp wouldn't add to the sweetness, but would rather dry it further?  Definitely not the case.  We did taste it before it was fully carbonated but only by a few days, and it was fairly carbonated, but the sweetness was "cloying".  We used priming sugar.  Could using too much be a factor in the sweetness?
 
civolpe1982 said:
It was pretty high on ibu's for a pale ale, so I don't think thats an issue. 

Pale Ale? The first line of your OP lead me to think you were going for something closer to American Lager ("Like" lighter beer).

So your saying the fact that we didn't reach the mashout temp wouldn't add to the sweetness, but would rather dry it further? 

Yup

Definitely not the case.  We did taste it before it was fully carbonated but only by a few days, and it was fairly carbonated, but the sweetness was "cloying".  We used priming sugar.  Could using too much be a factor in the sweetness?

Yes aaaannnnnd no.

Priming sugar can add a perceptible sweetness, however once the beer is fully carbonated, all that sugar is metabolized and turned to CO2. So it sounds like you might've jumped the gun and sampled it too soon. You should wait about 2 weeks, then sample.

Once fully carbonated, cloying sweetness gets back to what I first responded with.
 
There is the possibility of using too much of a dark cara- or crystal-malt...  Brings quite a lot of sweetness into the brew ;)
 
npg said:
There is the possibility of using too much of a dark cara- or crystal-malt...  Brings quite a lot of sweetness into the brew ;)
Sorry for the confusion as to the style.  We were going for a pale ale but added, I can't recall off hand, but it was either crystal 10L or biscuit (pretty sure it was crystal).  We used 1 pound to 7.75 of the 2 row for a 5 gallon batch.  Does that sound like enough crystal to account for the sweetness?

I'm hoping it's the case that we jumped the gun on the tasting, and thanks for the help!
 
That's quite high!  That would be in the region of 12% (if I understood correctly).  I'd try it with 5% (or just halve it).

Hope this helps....
 
civolpe1982 said:
[either crystal 10L or biscuit (pretty sure it was crystal).  We used 1 pound to 7.75 of the 2 row for a 5 gallon batch.  Does that sound like enough crystal to account for the sweetness?

Nope.

Though, NPG is correct that it's a bit high as a percentage of the grist, especially considering that you wanted a "light" flavor.

C-10 is mostly toasty, giving lighter malt notes than "dark" Munich, which is also 10 lovibond. C-10 is sorta Carapils with athletic abilities. Personally, I think it's one of the most under rated malts available. Most brewers go Carapils + C-40 or C-60, which doubles the dextrine and interferes with the toasty flavor brewers are often looking for. The result is flabby body and muddy malt flavor.

...Muddy Malt is the name of my brewpub blues band....
 
I did a 1 gallon batch of what turned out to be Pale Ale. It turned out almost perfect considering I am a novice.
I took the advice of someone here and used 5 % medium crystal but only sparged with it.That is my BIAB fell apart so I dumped the mash in a strainer with the crystal and rinsed it with hot water. That was it.
I wouldnt have wanted any more sweet and over all it was better than I hoped for.
 
As brewfun suggested, it could have been an incomplete conversion.

Do you do any sort of test to verify that conversion is complete? An iodine test is easy enough to do. That way you know for sure.

What I do is after stirring the mash I spoon a little bit onto a white saucer. Onto that I drip a drop or two of iodophor (for sale at any homebrew shop, it can double as an effective sanitizer, though it will stain plastic), and watch. It starts off purple. If it stays purple, even after a bit of a swirl, then it's done. If it starts to turn black then that indicates the presence of starch, so I give it more time and then test again. Either way I toss what's on the saucer. If you add it back in then the brew may never ferment (remember it's a sanitizer).

That way you know for sure that conversion is complete. The lower the mash temperature, the longer it takes. So if you're used to mashing in the low 150s, then mash in the high 140s, without a test you could easily move onto the next step before it's ready.
 
Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see a FG mentioned. Did you take one? And if so, did you use a hygrometer or refractometer?
 
I'd like to see the water mineral profile. Before I started adjusting my minerals for flavor, many of my beers had that slight sweetness in the background. Almost the "extract twang" type of flavor.

While I have no personal experience with "pH stabilizers", as in "5Star 5.2 Stabilizer", it's well documented on many forums that this does little to help in pH management and may affect flavor. Maybe this is contributing to the undesired flavor?
 
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