pre-boil gravity when using candi sugar

Hi all. I'm brewing a Belgian golden ale that calls for two pounds of candi sugar, which I'll add for 60 minutes of a 90 minute boil. My pre-boil gravity was estimated to be at 1.057 and it came in at 1.051 with the correct estimated volume. I'm trying to figure out if Beersmith is adding that candi sugar into the estimated pre-boil gravity. Anyone know the answer to that? Thanks for any help.

Also... I used the gravity adjustment tool to get my gravity up to my pre-boil target and after adding the DME realized that Beersmith may have been taking the sugar into consideration even though on the recipe it's supposed to go in for only 60 minutes. I guess we'll see where my OG ends up after the boil... I may end up having to take it back down.

I would guess that no, Beersmith is not adding the candi sugar. I brewed a tripel last month and used about 2lbs of candi sugar and my OG was 1.089 after I added it. I don't have my notes here with me, but I believe the gravity before adding the sugar was somewhere in the 1.050 neighborhood (perhaps slightly higher). Sounds to me like you just didn't get everything out of the grain that Beersmith was estimating you would. But the sugar should add a lot more to your gravity than just 1.006.

Question though....Why are you boiling the sugar for an hour? All the research I did before I brewed the tripel said 15 minutes was enough.

Hi evilgiraffe. Thanks for your input on this. It's tough to say what beersmith is doing. If I delete the sugar from the recipe, it adjusts my estimated pre-boil gravity down to 1.047 which puts me .004 higher than estimated and is actually more in line with my brewing, and also suggests that the sugar is considered as part of the pre-boil gravity even when it's specified as a late addition. I'd love to hear from someone at Beersmith about this issue and at what point the software accounts for the gravity from the sugar and how to best estimate pre-boil gravity if the sugar actually is part of that pre-boil gravity equation.

Regarding boil time for the sugar, I've seen a lot of opinions about that. I was recently at Allagash and asked the brewmaster himself how long the sugar is in the boil and he said 60 minutes for their beers on a 90 minute boil so I thought I'd give it a shot at that time. Seems to work well for him.

dlauridsen said:

I'm trying to figure out if Beersmith is adding that candi sugar into the estimated pre-boil gravity. Anyone know the answer to that? Thanks for any help.

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BeerSmith sums all sugar sources found in the grains data base into both pre and post boil numbers, regardless of when their added. This includes kettle additions and anywhere in fermentation.

I mark my sugars for addition after the boil.  You can do this by double clicking the sugars in the recipe and clicking the box for 'add after boil'.  This removes the sugar from the pre-boil gravity calculation, but not the post boil. 

I have not brewed a Belgian yet, but for those recipes that I add sugar, I mark and add it for post-boil addition.  I then stir in the sugar at flame-out and almost always hit my OG gravity reading right on.  With honey additions, I have gone to additions during fermentation, shortly after high krausen, to keep as much of the aroma quality as possible. 

For the Belgian dubbel that I am planning soon, I split the sugar addition to 1/3 after the boil and 2/3 addition during fermentation.  Makes a big difference (in my mind at least) in the health and quantity of the yeast needed to pitch.

Oginme said:

I mark my sugars for addition after the boil.  You can do this by double clicking the sugars in the recipe and clicking the box for 'add after boil'.  This removes the sugar from the pre-boil gravity calculation, but not the post boil. 

For the Belgian dubbel that I am planning soon, I split the sugar addition to 1/3 after the boil and 2/3 addition during fermentation.  Makes a big difference (in my mind at least) in the health and quantity of the yeast needed to pitch.

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I 've done the same with BeerSmith and marked the sugars for addition after the boil.
However, I stopped with adding sugar after the boil some time ago. To give the yeast a better chance to work with the more complex sugars first, I now only add sugar during fermentation, but after Krausen, when gravity is getting under 1020. I try to do this with 2-3 smaller sugar additions to avoid gravity exceeding 1035.
With these type of beers I create both a master recipe and an "actual" version in BeerSmith. I calculate first the total recipe (including sugar addition) and file it as a master version. Than I delete the sugar addition and file the recipe as an actual version. I use this actual version on brew day. Sometimes my numbers are not totally on spot and especially under these circumstances I think it's easier to use this "actual" version to compensate for different readings. I use the actual version also during  the fermentation proces to calculate when and how much sugar to add (keeping gravity between 1020 - 1035). I compare the Master version with the actual one. When all sugar additions are registrated  in BS you can choose which version you want to keep.
For the Belgium Red I am planning to brew this weekend I will have this double version of the recipe.

Slurk

Slurk,

I add most of sugar additions to the fermentation as well when it gets over 5% of the grain bill.  Normally, I wait until after high krausen to add the sugar in the fermentor.  When adding aromatic sugars, such as honey or maple sugar, I add them a little later (about 5 to 7 days after high krausen) to retain as much of the aroma quality as possible.

I do have some recipes that I use a couple % sugar to dry out the finish slightly.  Those sugar adds are typically post-boil.

My current brewing plan is to tackle a Belgian Dubbel shortly and split the sugar with a much lesser amount post-boil and the majority in the fermentor.

Oginme said:

Slurk,

I add most of sugar additions to the fermentation as well when it gets over 5% of the grain bill.  Normally, I wait until after high krausen to add the sugar in the fermentor.  When adding aromatic sugars, such as honey or maple sugar, I add them a little later (about 5 to 7 days after high krausen) to retain as much of the aroma quality as possible.

I do have some recipes that I use a couple % sugar to dry out the finish slightly.  Those sugar adds are typically post-boil.

My current brewing plan is to tackle a Belgian Dubbel shortly and split the sugar with a much lesser amount post-boil and the majority in the fermentor.

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I'm curious Oginme.  Would you treat Molasses or Treacle like honey and add it to the fermenter after high Krausen?

I'm brewing up a batch soon that I'm using a "Full Flavor" Molasses.

Scott,

I have before.  I found it much easier, due to the viscosity of molasses, to heat it up before adding it. 

Most of the time, my molasses addition only works out to 2% to 4% of my total grain bill, so I add it at flame-out.

Oginme said:

Scott,

I have before.  I found it much easier, due to the viscosity of molasses, to heat it up before adding it. 

Most of the time, my molasses addition only works out to 2% to 4% of my total grain bill, so I add it at flame-out.

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What do you think about this idea to try to preserve more of the flavor?

Pulling about 2 cups of beer out of the fermenter after primary and bringing it up to about 160F, then stirring in 12 ounces of molasses until dissolved.  Once it has cooled down, pouring it back into the fermenter.

I usually only heat it up until it is fluid enough to pour cleanly.  I think your idea would be worth a try.  Let me know how it turns out.