Sparing Only Dark Grains Question

joegbeer · Apr 10, 2016

My understanding is that dark grains (> 350 SRM) contribute very little fermentable sugars. I am also not mashing the dark grains, only sparging them. I'm trying to find the best way to represent this in beersmith. For example here is the recipe I am working with:

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 6.40 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.70 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.25 gal
Estimated OG: 1.073 SG
Estimated ABV: 7.3
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
8.0 oz Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 1 3.4 %
11 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 74.6 %
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 3 6.8 %
1 lbs Chocolate Wheat Malt (400.0 SRM) Grain 4 6.8 %
8.0 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 5 3.4 %
4.0 oz Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) Grain 6 1.7 %
8.0 oz Milk Sugar (Lactose) (0.0 SRM) Sugar 7 3.4 %
0.75 oz BSG Nugget [15.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 8 33.0 IBUs
2.00 oz Brewcraft US Tettnang [2.40 %] - Boil 15 Hop 9 6.8 IBUs
1.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 10.0 mins) Fining 10 -
2.0 pkg Denny's Favorite (Wyeast Labs #1450) [12 Yeast 11 -

When I add the dark grains to this recipe, beersmith is also significantly raising the original gravity and ABV estimates. For example, if I zero out the Chocolate Wheat from 1lb to 0, the original gravity drops to 1.068 and the ABV drops to 6.8. If I drop the Pale Malt (2 Row) from 11lbs to 10lbs, the original gravity and ABV changes the same amount. I'm sure I'm not doing something correct to get my dark grain usage calculated correctly in this recipe. On the dark grains, I've made sure that the "Recommend Mash" option is not checked. I've also tried checking the "Add after Boil" or "Not fermentable" and it's not changed the original gravity or ABV contributions from the dark grains.

For the dark grains, should I be changing the "Yield Potential" or the "Yield percentage"?

I've brewed this batch today and I've currently missed my original gravity (under) by a good amount. Based on how I currently have the recipe entered, I think beersmith is overcalculating the contributions from the dark grains. When I zero out the dark grain volume or zero out the Yield Potential (same effect), the estimated original gravity in beersmith is very close to what I measured after the brew day.

brewfun · Apr 11, 2016

joegbeer said:
My understanding is that dark grains (> 350 SRM) contribute very little fermentable sugars.

When I add the dark grains to this recipe, beersmith is also significantly raising the original gravity and ABV estimates.

I've brewed this batch today and I've currently missed my original gravity (under) by a good amount. Based on how I currently have the recipe entered, I think beersmith is overcalculating the contributions from the dark grains. When I zero out the dark grain volume or zero out the Yield Potential (same effect), the estimated original gravity in beersmith is very close to what I measured after the brew day.

This sounds like your Brewhouse Efficiency is set too high.

There's a difference between non fermentables and no gravity contribution. The yield percentage in each grain is what BeerSmith uses to calculate the contribution to gravity. Checking the non fermentable box makes it get added to the final gravity. It's still in the original gravity because it's contributing something.

In the equipment profile, if you have the "loss to trub..." field at zero, then Brewhouse Efficiency is the same as Mash Efficiency.

The yield for each ingredient tends to come from the manufacturer. It's usually something you can lookup online.

joegbeer · Apr 11, 2016

brewfun said:
This sounds like your Brewhouse Efficiency is set too high.

Could be, I'm new to all-grain brewing using beersmith. My Total Efficiency is set at 75%.

brewfun said:
There's a difference between non fermentables and no gravity contribution. The yield percentage in each grain is what BeerSmith uses to calculate the contribution to gravity. Checking the non fermentable box makes it get added to the final gravity. It's still in the original gravity because it's contributing something.

Agree and understand. I was just throwing out different options I was looking at.

brewfun said:
In the equipment profile, if you have the "loss to trub..." field at zero, then Brewhouse Efficiency is the same as Mash Efficiency.

Loss to Trub and Chiller in the equipment profile is set to 0.53. I've measured the remaining wort/trub and it was just under .5 gallons. I'm guessing the counter flow chiller is holding onto at least 0.05 gallons. I could possible raise this to 0.57 or 0.58.

brewfun said:
The yield for each ingredient tends to come from the manufacturer. It's usually something you can lookup online.

All the google searches I'm doing on grains have yield potentials for dark grains set in the ballpark of the current values in Beersmith.

Appreciate the feedback.

I feel like I'm still stuck with my original dilemma. I'm only sparging my dark grains. They will obviously add a little bit of gravity, but I'm not malting them. I struggle to see how 1 lb of chocolate wheat being sparged is going to add 0.5% ABV. Am I looking at this wrong?

brewfun · Apr 11, 2016

joegbeer said:
My Total Efficiency is set at 75%.

brewfun said:

In the equipment profile, if you have the "loss to trub..." field at zero, then Brewhouse Efficiency is the same as Mash Efficiency.

Click to expand...

Loss to Trub and Chiller in the equipment profile is set to 0.53. I've measured the remaining wort/trub and it was just under .5 gallons. I'm guessing the counter flow chiller is holding onto at least 0.05 gallons. I could possible raise this to 0.57 or 0.58.

This is very important: When you assign Brewhouse Efficiency (BHE), you're saying that out of all the potential sugars, that is the percentage that will get to the fermenter. So, the loss to trub and chiller are a percentage of the whole wort and must be subtracted from mash efficiency to get brewhouse efficiency.

If you raise the amount of loss, then your must reduce your brewhouse efficiency by the same percentage to be in the ballpark.

From the numbers you're giving me, you seem to be assuming 75% mash efficiency. Your batch size (to the fermenter) says 5.25 gallons. You just cited a minimum of 0.53 gallons, which means you have 90.8% going to the fermenter.

Mash Efficiency x Batch Yield = BHE

0.75 x 0.908 = 0.681 = 68.1% BHE

brewfun said:
brewfun said:

The yield for each ingredient tends to come from the manufacturer. It's usually something you can lookup online.

Click to expand...

All the google searches I'm doing on grains have yield potentials for dark grains set in the ballpark of the current values in Beersmith.

I feel like I'm still stuck with my original dilemma. I'm only sparging my dark grains. They will obviously add a little bit of gravity, but I'm not malting them. I struggle to see how 1 lb of chocolate wheat being sparged is going to add 0.5% ABV. Am I looking at this wrong?

I assume you mean mashing, not malting, there. If the grain is milled and placed into hot water below 170oF (77oC), then some conversion takes place, even in the sparge.

Specialty malts are supposed to add flavor and color to beer. They can't do that if there is zero contribution. The color and flavor come from extraction. You're also unnecessarily taking something to the nth degree, I think. One of the reasons for late additions of dark malts is to avoid tannin extraction (harshness) from its husk. Midnight wheat is huskless and designed to provide color and flavor without harshness.

joegbeer · Apr 12, 2016

brewfun said:
This is very important: When you assign Brewhouse Efficiency (BHE), you're saying that out of all the potential sugars, that is the percentage that will get to the fermenter. So, the loss to trub and chiller are a percentage of the whole wort and must be subtracted from mash efficiency to get brewhouse efficiency.

If you raise the amount of loss, then your must reduce your brewhouse efficiency by the same percentage to be in the ballpark.

From the numbers you're giving me, you seem to be assuming 75% mash efficiency. Your batch size (to the fermenter) says 5.25 gallons. You just cited a minimum of 0.53 gallons, which means you have 90.8% going to the fermenter.

Mash Efficiency x Batch Yield = BHE

0.75 x 0.908 = 0.681 = 68.1% BHE

Beersmith automates so many calculations, I was trying to figure out why the brewhouse efficiency value wasn't automatically calculated. I was struggling with the fact that I had batch loss and didn't see how it was being represented in any of the efficiency calculations. THANK YOU for this explanation, that helps a lot.

brewfun said:
I assume you mean mashing, not malting, there. If the grain is milled and placed into hot water below 170oF (77oC), then some conversion takes place, even in the sparge.

Specialty malts are supposed to add flavor and color to beer. They can't do that if there is zero contribution. The color and flavor come from extraction. You're also unnecessarily taking something to the nth degree, I think. One of the reasons for late additions of dark malts is to avoid tannin extraction (harshness) from its husk. Midnight wheat is huskless and designed to provide color and flavor without harshness.

Tired, meant mashing.

When I miss batch numbers I'm just trying hard to figure out whether the flaws are in either/both my physical process or my input into the beersmith predictive models. Not mashing the dark grains for full sugar extraction seemed to be a variance from the standard process that had not been accounted for. I think your explanation of brewhouse efficiency is going to be a big step towards improving my overall calculations. Eventually I just need to repeat the same recipe mashing the dark grains and compare numbers to learn the impacts and settle my own curiosity.

Sparing Only Dark Grains Question

joegbeer

Apprentice

brewfun

joegbeer

Apprentice

brewfun

joegbeer

Apprentice