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Mash Curiosity

Sremed60

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I am going to be doing a Belgian Dark Strong ale next week. I don't have the equipment to do a step mash so I'm debating about either a decoction mash or just a single infusion at 146˚F to 148˚F with no mashout. I'm interested in hearing any and all views or advice. 
 
I have done Belgian Dark Strong brews with a Single Infusion Mash with great success.  I've mashed from 148 degrees F to 152 degrees F.  The 148 degrees F mash had Saison yeast (was going for a crisp dry finish).

 
I'm with Scott.  If it was me, it'd be a single infusion mash at a higher temp than 148 for a medium body.
 
Anyway, this is what I came up with:

http://beersmithrecipes.com/viewrecipe/1243405/marcs-belgian-quad-01

I'm still new to all the beersmith software and I'm not a computer techie. I put down a tripel decoction but I'm actually thinking about doing the advanced double decoction, (there's just not a place in the program to insert it). I did notice that changing from single infusion mash to tripel decoction didn't affect the estimated abv%? I found that a bit odd. I still use a few different software programs to get to the final result.

Every beer I've ever brewed (so far) has been a single infusion mash between 152 and 158 degrees F. That said, I've brewed some good beers, a few pretty good beers, and some okay beers. Knock on wood I haven't had to pour a batch down the drain yet, but neither have I brewed a batch that absolutely knocked my socks off.

So I'm just messing around with different techniques and methods trying to get a feel for what works and what doesn't. Playing it safe and brewing another average beer seems like a waste of time and ingredients at this point.
 
Sremed60 said:
I put down a tripel decoction but I'm actually thinking about doing the advanced double decoction, (there's just not a place in the program to insert it).

?? I don't understand that last comment.  If you want to do a double decoction, then take one of the mash profiles and modify it to add the decoction steps you want to conduct.


Every beer I've ever brewed (so far) has been a single infusion mash between 152 and 158 degrees F. That said, I've brewed some good beers, a few pretty good beers, and some okay beers. Knock on wood I haven't had to pour a batch down the drain yet, but neither have I brewed a batch that absolutely knocked my socks off.

IMHO, if you want to up the quality of your brews, keep it simple with a single infusion and spend some time working on controlling your fermentation temperatures and pitching the correct amount of yeast.  This has made the greatest improvement in my brews.  Making wort can be easy or as difficult as you want to make it, but if you don't control where the actual conversion of  sugars to alcohol and where off flavors from the yeast are more likely to occur, you will be consistently disappointed.

So I'm just messing around with different techniques and methods trying to get a feel for what works and what doesn't. Playing it safe and brewing another average beer seems like a waste of time and ingredients at this point.
 
I have recently purchased an induction burner for my liqueur kettle.  This new burner is outstanding for producing very hot water relatively fast.  So, I have experimented with various types of stepped temperature infusion mashes with little or no real change in performance or efficiency.

Bottom line is, I have to agree with oginme and toots.  Keep it simple and strive for a controlled fermentation.  The grains we have available today are so highly modified thay make multi stepped infusions or decoction mashes rather pointless......in my opinion.
 
Thanks. I tackled the fermentation issues when I first started brewing. I have two temperature controlled fermentation chambers. The first one I built specifically as a fermentation chamber, (in the style of an old antique wooden ice box). I used the compressor and copper out of a mini fridge and I control it with an Inkbird controller. It is insulated to the T and maintains a temp within a degree. I use it exclusively for primary fermentation with a 6.5 gal plastic bucket that has the 12" stainless steel tube in the lid for the temperature probe. It's about as accurate as I would imagine it gets. The only thing I haven't done is automate it so I can a step up fermentation schedule and let it go. But it takes about 10 seconds to change the setting on the controller so the automation is not a huge priority right now.

The other one is a chest freezer also fitted with an Inkbird temp controller. That one I use for secondary fermentation and bottle conditioning.

So far I have kept things pretty simple, (like I said). Simple recipes, simple grain bills, simple ingredients, no odd adjuncts, spices, or peanut butter asparagus and bacon stouts (yet). Mostly barley, water, hops and yeast. Getting wild for me is adding a touch of Lactose, or oats, or wheat.

I use the Bru N' Water spreadsheet and I do like to tinker with my water profile somewhat. I had Ward Labs do a test on my tap water and according to Bru N' Water it apparently most closely resembles the water in Dusseldorf Germany. I usually do at least a 50/50 dilution with distilled water and play around with adding different minerals back in depending on the style or taste I'm going for.

Other than that, like I said, I've brewed some good beers, a few pretty good beers, and a couple okay beers. I'm just getting bored keeping it simple and drinking "good" beer. Looking for different things to try, (if for no other reason than just to say I tried it).

All that said: after doing some more reading on my current burst of creativity I'm not so sure now if a Belgian Dark Strong really lends itself to a decoction mash. The advanced double is where you do a pull and boil it, but you only add part of it back in to step the temp up once, then you boil the remainder and add that back in to step it up again. So it's kind of like a double decoction and a triple decoction combined. It sounded cool to me - (what do I know).

I know Decoction might not be the way to go on a Belgian, but I also know the Trappist monks don't do "simple" single infusion mashes either - so I'm just getting ideas.
 
Sremed60 said:
after doing some more reading on my current burst of creativity I'm not so sure now if a Belgian Dark Strong really lends itself to a decoction mash.

Decoction mashes shine where malt character is required from very simple recipes. They're not always as effective for flavor where specialty malts or kettle sugars are used.

I know Decoction might not be the way to go on a Belgian, but I also know the Trappist monks don't do "simple" single infusion mashes either - so I'm just getting ideas.

Well, this is really nuanced and not able to be summed up in a simple "yes" or "no." I'm pretty confident that there are few to none Trappist or Abbey style breweries that use German style decoction. What is true is that each Belgian brewer makes a specific approach to specific malts and desired outcomes. Trappist breweries sometimes employ a protein rest and sometimes don't. It can vary by brewery or by recipe within a brewery.

The important consideration is the malt you're starting with and how you want it to present in appearance, strength, and body. That takes experience and nuance to get just right.
 
Well, this is really nuanced and not able to be summed up in a simple "yes" or "no." I'm pretty confident that there are few to none Trappist or Abbey style breweries that use German style decoction. What is true is that each Belgian brewer makes a specific approach to specific malts and desired outcomes. Trappist breweries sometimes employ a protein rest and sometimes don't. It can vary by brewery or by recipe within a brewery.

The important consideration is the malt you're starting with and how you want it to present in appearance, strength, and body. That takes experience and nuance to get just right.

My original post was because I was trying to decide between a decoction or a low temp single infusion with no mash out. After looking in to it for a while now, I've pretty much ruled out both. But I do I appreciate the responses.

Since I got into this hobby I've kept things as simple as possible; simple recipes, simple single infusion mash, simple ingredients, simple fermentation, etc, etc. Partly because I'm a firm believer in the "learn to crawl before you walk" philosophy - but mostly because I'm cheap beyond reason and didn't want to risk pouring 5 gallons of expensive creative expression down the drain.

I used to brew at least a batch a month, sometimes two batches a month, year round.
"Without obsession; life is nothing" ~ John Waters.
I've cut back to brewing between October and March, and how often or what I brew is limited only by which fermentation chamber is available at the time.

I've brewed some "OK" beers. The last Tripel I brewed I would say honestly was probably one of the top 25 beers I've ever drank, but it probably wouldn't have won any awards. For one it only finished at around 7.2% estimated abv, which is below the BJCP guidelines for the style. It was also carbonated at 4.0 units of CO2. The recipe was ridiculously simple. I made the Belgian candi sugar - it was a single infusion mash. The only playing around I did was starting the primary fermentation out at the bottom of the range and stepping it up 1 degree every day. Then I racked to secondary and left it at a fairly low 68 degrees for 30 days. It continued to get better as it aged and it was amazing at 3 months, (which is when I drank the last bottle because I'm weak). 

At any rate - I just brew a few beers a year now and I'm always looking for new ideas to pick them up a little and make them better than "OK." The beer I'm gearing up to brew now is a Belgian Quad - my first one. Just looking for ideas before I carve the final recipe in stone.
 
I have pretty much resolved the issues that prompted me to post this initially, so I don't want to beat a dead horse into the ground and keep a boring thread open indefinitely.
BUT - I came up with another idea that I was hoping to get feedback on and didn't think it was worth starting a whole new topic since it is kind of a continuation of this one.

The grainbill for Belgian Dark Strong I'm going to brew is:
  • 15 lbs of Castle Chateau Pilsen
  • 8 oz of Castle Chateau Cara Gold (49 L)
  • 3 oz of Castle Chateau Special B (130 L)
15.7 lbs total. It doesn't calculate to be that dark, but I don't want it to be super dark and I was planning the decoction which would add color.

What I'm thinking about now is doing a step infusion mash instead. I was hoping someone with more experience than I could have a quick look at my grain and mash schedule and tell me what they think?

  • 14 qts of strike water @ 133(F) would give me a qt/lb ratio of .9 and a rest temp of 122(F) - 10 minutes
  • Add 9.5 qts @ 212(F), qt/lb ratio of 1.5 and rest temp of 154(F) - 50 minutes
  • Fly sparge at 170(F) - 60-90 minutes

I'm going to start the primary fermentation at 66(F) and slowly increase it to 72(F), then do a secondary fermentation at 76(F) for 30 days, and age it at 78-80(F) for a couple months.

If you see any major problems with this I would appreciate a heads up from an experienced brewer.

Since I started brewing I've tried to keep things as simple as possible. I was still learning and it seemed like it would be easier to pinpoint issues and troubleshoot areas if I kept the process simple. I also didn't know what I was doing so I didn't want to just start trying new techniques without first having at least a rudimentary understanding of the science involved.

Now I probably know just enough to get me into trouble, but be that as it may - if the idea is to coax as many flavors (good flavors) and aromas out of a simple grain bill as possible, then it only makes sense that varying mash temps and fermentation schedules would produce more than one mash temp, a quick primary fermentation at one temp and into the bottle.

I realize there's also the risk of coaxing out some of the off flavors and aromas too. I debated switching out the Special B for a roasted malt for that reason - but it's only 3 oz and I'm not doing anything outlandishly crazy.so   
 
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