Harvesting/Saving Yeast

So the last time I racked off the primary there was SUCH a pretty pile of yeast that I hydrated it a little and put it in a Grolsch type bottle that my brew pub master-brewer gave me some yeast in a while back and threw it in the fridge. When it came time to brew again (the next weekend) I pulled out the yeast, shook it into a growler, added a weak starter (water and spray malt 1.020 or there aboutst), air locked it and set it on the kitchen counter.

The next morning it was going wild. I brewed essentially the same California/American ale that I harvested it from. The OG of the mother batch was 1.080 and it went to 1.008 in 3.5 days. This time 1.080 went to 1.012 in the same amount of time and stopped dead.

OK. Call me Princess but I can taste the extra 0.004 sweetness and I don't want it in my ale. Is my yeast tired and can't quite make it across the finish line or do you think I screwed up and produced some less-than-fermentable sugar in my mash somehow?

If it's just tired yeast, I'll bottle with champagne yeast and no additional sugar. But if it's complex sugars, I'll have to add a special yeast and leave it in the secondary a few weeks longer than I'd like to.

Is there a simple (and I'm talking dirt simple here. I got a D in organic chem in college) test for complex vs simple sugars?

Just thinking out loud. Oh this brewing thing is ever a puzzle...

- Hare

We will need you to post your recipe and your mash profile for us to help. There are many factors that come into play: grain bill, mash profile, water, fermentation temps, wort aeration and pitching temp's. The starter you made may have been to week and the yeast may have been shocked at what they were up against when you pitched it. I try to make my starters no more than 20 points difference, and the temp difference between the wort and the starter no more than 10deg.

There are many forms of yeast out there. Your everyday run of the mill yeast can consume about 60-65 points on average during primary fermentation 4-7 days. Without any other information I would say that it was doing what you asked it to do.

Do you bottle or Keg? If you keg, don't force carb this time. Add the priming sugar for either bottle or keg and let it go. The yeast will reactivate and you will be fine. Chalk it up to a learning experience and DWHAHB.

Cheers

Preston

Thanks, Preston.

I'm careful to pitch the starter at the same temp as the chilled wort. I wasn't aware of a need to keep the starter gravity close to the wort gravity. I was probably (guessing) using a starter at 1.020 and I figure much of that was consumed during the day before pitching.

I usually alternate between yeast that I get from the microbrewery here (brewer is a great guy!) and the Whitelabs WLP001 started the day before in a growler with 6 cups of boiled spray malt/water.

I figured that if the professional brewer could harvest yeast, I'd try it as well.

I only bottle condition so that's not a problem. But with this batch, should I add the usual amount of bottling sugar or should I figure in the couple points of gravity I didn't expect?

OK... DWHAHB?



Here's the recipe:

As you can see, I've been getting a much lower FG than BeerSmith predicts (1.008 vs 1.017) and I've been overpitching (by most standards) to get it down there fast.

Elgin Pale Ale
Type: All Grain
Date: 5/10/2008
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Size: 6.31 gal 
Boil Time: 90 min 
 
Ingredients


12.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 75.00 %
2.00 lb Rye Malt (4.7 SRM) Grain 12.50 %
1.00 lb Rye, Flaked (2.0 SRM) Grain 6.25 %
1.00 lb Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 6.25 %
1.50 oz Nugget [13.00 %] (60 min) Hops 59.0 IBU
1.00 oz Williamette [5.50 %] (30 min) Hops 12.8 IBU
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (5 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops - 
2.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (Dry Hop Primary and Secondary) Hops - 
0.5 cup California Ale (White Labs #WLP001) Harvested 4 days Prior to Brewing [Starter 6 Cup] [Cultured] Yeast-Ale 


 
Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.077 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.080 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.017 SG
Measured Final Gravity: 1.012 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 7.84 %  Actual Alcohol by Vol: 8.46 %
Bitterness: 71.8 IBU Calories: 352 cal/pint
Est Color: 5.9 SRM

 
Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion
Total Grain Weight: 16.00 lb
Sparge Water: 4.00 gal
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F
 
Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge Step
Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Jim's Mash Add 4.48 gal of water at 162.6 F 150.0 F


 

harebare said:

I figure much of that was consumed during the day before pitching.

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That is correct, As I understand it this step is to prepare the yeast for the task. Which includes cell multiplication/replication.

harebare said:

I figured that if the professional brewer could harvest yeast, I'd try it as well.

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Lots of people wash yeast successfully and It sounds like you were successful also.

harebare said:

I only bottle condition so that's not a problem. But with this batch, should I add the usual amount of bottling sugar or should I figure in the couple points of gravity I didn't expect?

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Yes only add the usual amount. Some would argue that would be to much, but If the yeast stopped at .012 then I think it will be safe to use the standard amount. If it stopped above .020 I would be worried about bottle bombs. But it's not so you should be fine.

harebare said:

As you can see, I've been getting a much lower FG than BeerSmith predicts (1.008 vs 1.017) and I've been overpitching (by most standards) to get it down there fast.

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The yeast is the biggest contributor to this. Higher ABV Yay! Good yeast WLP001 I use it now and then!

If it "consistently" becomes an issue you might try a lighter mash profile with some lower temps to get more fermentables out of it and less unfermentable sugars. This will also change the beer characteristics which might not be what you are looking for. I prefer some caramels in my beer and light hops, but thats just me. This beer is almost an ESB in my own opinion, but thats just me and its not my style. To each his own. WOW 71 IBU!

You never mentioned if you hit your temps. With the amount of Wheat and Rye you may get a better efficiency if you also do a protein rest. I usually always do an acid/protein rest even if i don't have lots of Adjuncts prior to Saccrification along with a mash out to turn off the enzymes. I have attached my mash profiles use them if you like. The only difference is I adjusted the ph because I always use 5.2ph additive. One less thing to take into consideration. 

After your beer carb's I doubt you will taste any sugars.

Cheers

Preston

I didn't see mash temps in your recipe.  That has a HUGE effect on your final gravity.

I'd pay more attention to what you are feeding the yeast than to the yeast itself.  Yeasties are bred and programmed to do a job, and I they don't make mistakes. 
We on the other hand can give yeasties a mess of unfermentable dextrines that raise our final gravity but it isnt' the yeast's fault!
Or we can, with our mash temperature and other variables, produce a mash where we give the yeasties more food than intended and get a lower than expected final gravity!

Examine your procedure and temperatures before blaming some defenseless one celled fungus!

Maine Homebrewer said:

Examine your procedure and temperatures before blaming some defenseless one celled fungus!

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Trust me, IMHO yeasties are our friends. I talk to them, encourage them, cheer them on. In the finished product, I drink to their health and their noble work. I'm sure it's me and not the little yeasties. I was asking how best to treat them and I do think you're on the head of the nail when you suggest that I've fed them the wrong fuel. Working that issue. More to come.

Thanks,

- Hare

With good advice and input from Preston and Maine, I brewed essentially the same pale (a slightly modified grain bill (11 lbs 2-row, 5 lbs malted barley, no wheat, no flakes) but took the suggestion to go for a lower temperature (148F vs. 156F) single infusion mash and a mash out which I have not done in the past. I got to within a point (.001) of the OG of the previous batch. I was very VERY careful on temps and times so we will see how it ferments out.

I did pitch fresh WLP001 started in a growler 12 hours prior to pitching.

I've now got 3 batches of pale made on three consecutive weekends. One is in the bottle, one in the secondary (the one that didn't hit the target FG) and one in the primary. Along with some very detailed notes (thanks BeerSmith!), these three should be very educational when they all reach maturity about midsummer.

- Hare

Quick question, why did you remove the Wheat and Rye flakes? Im sure you were getting fermentables out of them. Im interested in know what the outcome of this removal is to your beer and your take on the recipe. Sometimes simple is better, then again sometimes not.

Keep me posted, on the outcome.

Cheers!

Wastegate said:

Quick question, why did you remove the Wheat and Rye flakes?

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Yes, I'm fairly sure they were both converting pretty well. I've had the habit (while brewing extract and mini-mash beers) of throwing a pound of wheat in for head retention. I had a recipe for an organic rye ale that used the rye flakes and I've brewed that in several variations. I've been trying to duplicate my favorite "extreme" ale, Hop Rod Rye (Bear Republic, Sonoma, CA) and my friend the master brewer down at the pub told me to switch from flakes to rye malt and see if I got closer to clone brewing HRR.

Since switching to all grain, I've also been a little smarter about understanding all the characteristics of my ingredients and I'm thinking I've got too much higher protein gains in the mash. I like head but I like clarity too.

Besides, I want to see what 5 lbs of rye tastes like. 

One thing I can report so far, it's way more effort to get rye through the crusher vs 2 row. Other than that, it's in the primary, it smells good, it looks good and the gravity is dropping like a stone.

- Hare