pause before boiling

kenneth · Jun 5, 2008

Hi there,

I am a danish pasionate home brewer.
I would like to ask if anyone knows what the effekt is, to take a 3 hours pause/break
after sparkin - before boiling with hops..............?
The liquide have maybe rested about 70 degrees celsius.
I have done so a few times, and it seems like it changes the taste to a more "belgium" stil,
even for a average hoppy ale.........??
Does the wort change in that kind of pause? ???

all the best kenneth

Wastegate · Jun 5, 2008

kenneth said:
I would like to ask if anyone knows what the effekt is, to take a 3 hours pause/break
after sparkin - before boiling with hops..............?
The liquide have maybe rested about 70 degrees celsius.
I have done so a few times, and it seems like it changes the taste to a more "belgium" stil,
even for a average hoppy ale.........??
Does the wort change in that kind of pause? ???
all the best kenneth

Hi Kenneth, Welcome to the forum.
From what I understand, if you pause for 3 hours after sparging at 70 deg C. Since you have removed liquid off the grain. The Grains have already given off the sucrose and dextrose, and the high temp has turned off the enzymes. I don't believe you are getting any benefit and may be extending your brew day unnecessarily.

I do add a pause on top of my First Wort Hops as an interim step to mellow out an ESB or IPA.

Cheers

Preston

kenneth · Jun 6, 2008

Hi again,

My point is not to get a benefit, just that it sometimes is practical to make a break.
But then a was worried if the pause changes the taste, if some proces is going on in the meantime...........
kenneth

harebare · Jun 6, 2008

kenneth said:
But then a was worried if the pause changes the taste, if some process is going on in the meantime...........
kenneth

I agree with Preston. There shouldn't be anything "going on" with the possible exception of some solids falling out of your uncooked wort.

If you need to add a couple hour break (to run down the the pub, have a mug or two and refill your growlers maybe?) I find that I get a lot of benefit to letting my wort sit for an hour or even more after chilling. A great deal of the cold break settles out and it's much easier to get more wort/less trub into the fermenter. I also use an extra-fine nylon filter bag during the transfer.

Call me crazy (most do), but I think it results in a cleaner and more crisp tasting finished product.

- Hare

Wastegate · Jun 8, 2008

harebare said:
Call me crazy (most do), but I think it results in a cleaner and more crisp tasting finished product.

Your Crazy! ALTHOUGH I HAVE LITTLE ROOM TO TALK! ;D

Cheers

Preston

harebare · Jun 9, 2008

Somehow I sensed that about you, Preston.

But seriously, do you not think that starting with really clean wort has no impact on the finished beer?

- Hare

Wastegate · Jun 9, 2008

harebare said:
But seriously, do you not think that starting with really clean wort has no impact on the finished beer?

I once read that removing every last bit of hot break removes vital nutrients that the yeast needs to reproduce (cellular wall generation). I have also read that hot break is not necessary as long as there is enough fermentable sugars (SG 1.040) in the wort for the yeast to consume. I'm no expert on yeast so my opinion is just that an opinion.

Yes I try to leave the hot-break in the kettle, but I'm not worried about picking some up in the siphon. It will all fall out of the mix in the Secondary. I use Gelatin in the secondary to clear my beer anyhow. For me, I think there are bigger fish that make more of a difference in the beer characteristics: make sure the fermentation temps are under control, or that I hit my Mash temps dead on, or that everything is spotless and sanitized.

I have read some of your posts that mention this, This is your hobby, Do it how you want! As long as you have the basics down you will make beer. But the devil is in the details, so if you want to filter from the kettle, then go for it. Does it make a difference, I don't know. Sounds logical though.

Cheers

Preston

harebare · Jun 9, 2008

Well, I certainly don't get every last bit, that's for sure. But I do try to get all the stuff that's too big to go through a fine nylon bag.

Intersting you should mention gelatin. I've been experimenting with different fining agents lately. Polyclar and Sparkaloid so far. In both cases, I ended up using gelatin too. Seems that, at least for the style of beer I'm making, that it does the best job.

Anyway, back to the trub-ject. I've made almost no progress in reducing chill haze. People told me my cold break wasn't sufficient so we built a wort chiller worthy of Mr. Freeze. This is what started me filtering the boiled wort. I've tried different protein rests in my mash. I even tried the Rye IPA recipe (the one with nothing but 2 row and rye) because my head retention pound of wheat and my flavor secret (rye flakes) were blamed as sources of soluble proteins. NOTHING seems to have an effect. Crystal clear in the bottle until chilled. Grrrrr.

Well, at the very least, home brewing is less frustrating than golf. You don't need to wear spikes to brew and when a round of golf is done, you still have to go buy beer.

- Hare

Wastegate · Jun 9, 2008

Made me laugh

I to tried Polycar, Sparkaloid, and SuperKleer, with mixed results. Gelatin is cheaper and it does the same thing without any side effects.

Here is what I do to help "reduce" (Not always successful) Chill haze when necessary from start to finish.
I use 5.2PH stabilizer in the Mash to help get all the good stuff out of the grains.
I do a protein rest to get the grains ready for Scarification.
I make sure I nail the Scarification Temps. 150 deg F to 158 deg F no higher.
I don't bother with an Iodine test because I Sparge with 168 deg F water until I reach the boil volume.
I bring the boil up as fast as possible.
I boil for 90 min to help congeal all the protein's.
I use a 5gal paint strainer for Hops and Irish Moss.
I use 1/4 tsp (per 5Gal) Irish moss 20 min before flame out.
Chill the wort as fast as possible.
Whirlpool the wort and let set for 30-45 min after whirlpool
After Primary fermentation is completed I Crash cool (to 35deg F) in the Primary to make all the yeast drop out of the beer.
I add Gelatin to the secondary at least one week before it is finished secondary clearing.
I Crash Cool the beer after secondary is completed before transfer to bottles or keg (This is a good indicator if the beer will be clear when it is cold). If it is still hazy I will use Super Kleer (So far it has worked best for me, But I try Gelatin first because it is cheap.) and leave it for one more week keeping it cold during the week.
If it is not clear by now its not going to be!

WOW I just looked at everything I do for Clear beer. I didn't realize how much work goes into clear beer.

Cheers

Preston

harebare · Jun 9, 2008

Wastegate said:
Made me laugh

You do the same for me. Often!

I use 5.2PH stabilizer in the Mash to help get all the good stuff out of the grains.

Does this have an effect on CH? I hit my targets and have not felt the need.

I do a protein rest to get the grains ready for Scarification.

check

I make sure I nail the Scarification Temps. 150 deg F to 158 deg F no higher.

check

I don't bother with an Iodine test because I Sparge with 168 deg F water until I reach the boil volume.

check

I bring the boil up as fast as possible.

A real problem with my current setup. How does this effect CH?

I boil for 90 min to help congeal all the protein's.

check

I use a 5gal paint strainer for Hops and Irish Moss.

cheesecloth socks for hops. Nothing for moss. Problem?

I use 1/4 tsp (per 5Gal) Irish moss 20 min before flame out.

check

Chill the wort as fast as possible.

double-check

Whirlpool the wort and let set for 30-45 min after whirlpool

check (See? You let things settle out after the big chill too. And you called me crazy...)

After Primary fermentation is completed I Crash cool (to 35deg F) in the Primary to make all the yeast drop out of the beer.

Interesting. I can see this clearing faster. (I move mine to the wine cellar to speed clearing.) But that's room temp clarity, right? Not the dreaded chill haze.

I add Gelatin to the secondary at least one week before it is finished secondary clearing.

check

I Crash Cool the beer after secondary is completed before transfer to bottles or keg (This is a good indicator if the beer will be clear when it is cold). If it is still hazy I will use Super Kleer (So far it has worked best for me, But I try Gelatin first because it is cheap.) and leave it for one more week keeping it cold during the week.

OK. So I've tried inducing haze in the secondary and then trying to remove it. ("Cold filtered" is somebody's trademark, I think.) But I have the problem of keeping it cold whilst clearing. The haze goes back into solution the minute the beer warms up again. Maybe I'll have to invest in an old fridge.

My brew partner tells me not to get so freaked over this. Most of the craft beers we admire have some CH (Goose Island Honkers, Bear Republic Rye IPA and Hop Rod Rye, Red Hook...) and our favorite brew pubs' pale ales are all a bit on the translucent side.

But damnitall, I want clear beer!

Thanks for all the tips. I'll try incorporating some of the ones I'm not already doing.

- Hare

Wastegate · Jun 10, 2008

I use 5.2PH stabilizer in the Mash to help get all the good stuff out of the grains.

Does this have an effect on CH? I hit my targets and have not felt the need.

Just one of the steps in preparation for enzyme conversion and Scarification. Every step is important to getting clear beer. Especially if you don't have an expensive filtering system like BMC

I bring the boil up as fast as possible.

A real problem with my current setup. How does this effect CH?

I don't know if it is a factor, just make me feel good to know that it does not linger for very long below boiling.

I use a 5gal paint strainer for Hops and Irish Moss.

cheesecloth socks for hops. Nothing for moss. Problem?

Sounds good to me

Whirlpool the wort and let set for 30-45 min after whirlpool

check (See? You let things settle out after the big chill too. And you called me crazy...)

Check ROFLMAO

After Primary fermentation is completed I Crash cool (to 35deg F) in the Primary to make all the yeast drop out of the beer.

Interesting. I can see this clearing faster. (I move mine to the wine cellar to speed clearing.) But that's room temp clarity, right? Not the dreaded chill haze.

Correct that is room temp clarity, but you may also see CH when you pull it out for transfer to secondary at this point. Quick note: Don't add the Gelatin into cold beer! Big mistake! Learn from experience, let the beer warm up to room temp before you add it to the beer!

I Crash Cool the beer after secondary is completed before transfer to bottles or keg (This is a good indicator if the beer will be clear when it is cold). If it is still hazy I will use Super Kleer (So far it has worked best for me, But I try Gelatin first because it is cheap.) and leave it for one more week keeping it cold during the week.

OK. So I've tried inducing haze in the secondary and then trying to remove it. ("Cold filtered" is somebody's trademark, I think.) But I have the problem of keeping it cold whilst clearing. The haze goes back into solution the minute the beer warms up again. Maybe I'll have to invest in an old fridge.

If you still have chill haze when you crash cool before you transfer to bottles/keg. Try SuperKleer. It works! Just make sure you don't server the beer to anyone who has a shellfish allergy.
Sounds like a plan. I actually bought a deep freezer and put a temp controller on it.

But damnitall, I want clear beer!

Ummmmm BMC Comes to mind!!! Ok just kidding. Would you be interested in a beer swap? I will send you a PM to exchange addresses if you are interested.

harebare · Jun 10, 2008

Preston said:

Quick note: Don't add the Gelatin into cold beer! Big mistake! Learn from experience, let the beer warm up to room temp before you add it to the beer!

And don't add it an hour before bottling either. This is how I got the batch we fondly refer to as "Ole Jellyfish." It was, however, the best half mash we ever made!

- Hare

harebare · Jun 12, 2008

I took a couple shelves out of the kitchen fridge. The Rye developed some first class chill haze over night. I'm going to go get me some SuperKleer this afternoon. Stay tuned.

- Hare

Wastegate · Jun 12, 2008

I think you will be happy with it. It works best in the fridge.

Cheers

Preston

harebare · Jun 14, 2008

Preston,

24+ hours since I added the SuperKleen and no visible clearing of the chill haze.

On the upside, many of my hops have already hit the top of the string and are starting to set flowers!

- Hare

Wastegate · Jun 16, 2008

harebare said:
24+ hours since I added the SuperKleen and no visible clearing of the chill haze.

Couple things
Does it smell Yeasty/bready or phenolic smells coming off of it? If so it may be an infection.
What is your IBU? Are you or have you Dry Hopped this bad boy? If so you may have Hop Haze and there is nothing you can do about that. Most IPA's have Hop Haze.
Lastly This may be a Starch. The only thing you can do is Narrow it down to your Processes. Hit your Mash temps, and Mash out at the correct temps, Sparge with correct temps, Don't over-sparg, etc... I think you know the drill. (BTW Its the RYE)

Cheers

Preston

harebare · Jun 16, 2008

Smells great. Was a heavily instrumented batch. Everything dead nuts on. Rye. I agree.

beernut · Jul 24, 2008

Hi Preston

After reading your informative post on AG brewing I was at a loss with the term "scarification" after protein rest, looking through Wiki and a couple of other sites I can't find any reference to it. Would you be a nice chappie and explain to this struggling brewer new to AG what it means

Cheers
Brian

So much to learn so little time.

harebare · Jul 24, 2008

Preston talks funny but he brews a hell of a nice beer.

Seriously, sacrification is just the main step in the mash. The one that converts starch into sugar. The temperature of this step is critical to the outcome of the beer. Warmer and the beer has more body. Cooler and the beer is lighter.

- Hare

beernut · Jul 25, 2008

Thanks for that Hare, it is a term I haven't come across down this end of the planet.

pause before boiling

kenneth

Wastegate

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