Author Topic: Need Some Help!  (Read 8500 times)

Offline Ck27

  • BeerSmith Grandmaster Brewer
  • *****
  • Posts: 529
  • BeerSmith's Unofficial Spam Police.... Do Not Spam
Need Some Help!
« on: December 11, 2017, 12:03:35 PM »
So I was talking to the brewmaster at anchor he told me exactly how to brew ⚓ steam beer but mentioned step mashing that ramps up the temperature as he said fairly rapidly for good body, where do you guys recommend starting and how rapidly would you raise temps. I've never done s mash like this before and am looking for advice.

Offline Oginme

  • BeerSmith Grandmaster Brewer
  • *****
  • Posts: 3150
  • Goats, guitars, and a home brew; Life is good!
    • Longvu LaManchas
Re: Need Some Help!
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2017, 01:33:43 PM »
Did he give you temperature rests and times? 

There are a number of typical resting spots for different enzymes to be effective.  Typical rests are at around 95F for a phytase rest (releases inorganic phosphorous which acts to acidify the wort), around 113F for Beta-glucanase enzymes to act upon the starches in the protein layer which surrounds the shell of the grains, around 122F for the Peptidase enzyme which breaks up the longer chain proteins into medium length chains, around 136F for Proteinase enzymes which break down the proteins that hold the starches in the kernel, around 148F for Beta amylase and 158F for Alpha amylase both of which break down the starches.

Knowing what rests the brewer recommends may give you some hint at what he is trying to accomplish with his step mash.
Recycle your grains, feed them to a goat!

Offline Ck27

  • BeerSmith Grandmaster Brewer
  • *****
  • Posts: 529
  • BeerSmith's Unofficial Spam Police.... Do Not Spam
Re: Need Some Help!
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2017, 01:42:32 PM »
Did he give you temperature rests and times? 

There are a number of typical resting spots for different enzymes to be effective.  Typical rests are at around 95F for a phytase rest (releases inorganic phosphorous which acts to acidify the wort), around 113F for Beta-glucanase enzymes to act upon the starches in the protein layer which surrounds the shell of the grains, around 122F for the Peptidase enzyme which breaks up the longer chain proteins into medium length chains, around 136F for Proteinase enzymes which break down the proteins that hold the starches in the kernel, around 148F for Beta amylase and 158F for Alpha amylase both of which break down the starches.

Knowing what rests the brewer recommends may give you some hint at what he is trying to accomplish with his step mash.

No, he just told me to use a rapid step mash and it's left me stumped

Offline brewfun

  • BeerSmith Grandmaster Brewer
  • *****
  • Posts: 2304
  • Malt dust is just alcohol's glitter
Re: Need Some Help!
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2017, 08:14:59 PM »
Anchor uses domestic 2 row for their Steam Beer. This eliminates a protein rest from consideration. You're left with conversion and mash-out. Go between the two in 10 or 15 minutes and you have a "fast" profile.

I know that a very lovely steam beer can come from a simple infusion with a single decoction to get mash out.

One thing to consider is that Anchor Steam didn't exist in it's current form until 1971 or as late as 1975. Even then, it wasn't all plotted out and planned, it came from what they had available at the time. It's more of a method, than a style. So, don't feel slavishly driven to copy just one example.
Beer Appreciation is the space between pints.

KellerBrauer

  • Guest
Re: Need Some Help!
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2017, 05:50:12 AM »

I know more about anchors brewing than you do, I spoke to the brewmaster, they use a step mash that rapidly ramps up the temperature.

Greetings Ck27 - Wow!  Brewfun offered their opinion and some advise to your question and you respond with: ?I know more about anchor brewing than you do?.  I think that?s an inappropriate response to a person who offered their opinion; And in a different post, you commented on why you are getting negative karma?

If you spoke with the Brewmaster from Anchor Brewing than ask that person what temperatures to use for your mash!

Meantime, please try and be a bit more considerate to others in this forum.

Thank you in advance.

Offline jtoots

  • BeerSmith Grandmaster Brewer
  • *****
  • Posts: 471
Re: Need Some Help!
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2017, 07:58:56 AM »

I know more about anchors brewing than you do, I spoke to the brewmaster, they use a step mash that rapidly ramps up the temperature.

Greetings Ck27 - Wow!  Brewfun offered their opinion and some advise to your question and you respond with: ?I know more about anchor brewing than you do?.  I think that?s an inappropriate response to a person who offered their opinion; And in a different post, you commented on why you are getting negative karma?

If you spoke with the Brewmaster from Anchor Brewing than ask that person what temperatures to use for your mash!

Meantime, please try and be a bit more considerate to others in this forum.

Thank you in advance.

+1.  This forum does a great job keeping the quality of information high and the courtesy of interactions polite.  Let's keep it that way, please!  Thank you Keller!

Offline Ck27

  • BeerSmith Grandmaster Brewer
  • *****
  • Posts: 529
  • BeerSmith's Unofficial Spam Police.... Do Not Spam
Re: Need Some Help!
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2017, 02:20:01 PM »

I know more about anchors brewing than you do, I spoke to the brewmaster, they use a step mash that rapidly ramps up the temperature.

Greetings Ck27 - Wow!  Brewfun offered their opinion and some advise to your question and you respond with: ?I know more about anchor brewing than you do?.  I think that?s an inappropriate response to a person who offered their opinion; And in a different post, you commented on why you are getting negative karma?

If you spoke with the Brewmaster from Anchor Brewing than ask that person what temperatures to use for your mash!
He said that they just ramp it up, he didn't give me temps, even when I asked.
Meantime, please try and be a bit more considerate to others in this forum.

Thank you in advance.

Offline Ck27

  • BeerSmith Grandmaster Brewer
  • *****
  • Posts: 529
  • BeerSmith's Unofficial Spam Police.... Do Not Spam
Re: Need Some Help!
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2017, 02:21:42 PM »

I know more about anchors brewing than you do, I spoke to the brewmaster, they use a step mash that rapidly ramps up the temperature.

Greetings Ck27 - Wow!  Brewfun offered their opinion and some advise to your question and you respond with: ?I know more about anchor brewing than you do?.  I think that?s an inappropriate response to a person who offered their opinion; And in a different post, you commented on why you are getting negative karma?

If you spoke with the Brewmaster from Anchor Brewing than ask that person what temperatures to use for your mash!

Meantime, please try and be a bit more considerate to others in this forum.

Thank you in advance.

tell me about it it seems like every time I help someone, I get negative karma, and then when someone else is wrong they get positive, I mean its not really bothering me, but as to brewfun, ive had some inaccurate information from him in the past and mostly just ignore him at this point, its nothing personal.

As to you Keller, thanks.

+1.  This forum does a great job keeping the quality of information high and the courtesy of interactions polite.  Let's keep it that way, please!  Thank you Keller!

Offline GigaFemto

  • BeerSmith Grandmaster Brewer
  • *****
  • Posts: 356
  • Muonic Matter Rocks!
Re: Need Some Help!
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2017, 03:57:03 PM »
If you speak to the brewer again, ask him what he means by "fairly rapidly" in terms of degrees/hr. I don't know much about commercial brewing, but I think with massive amounts of liquid and limited surface contact with the vessel they can't change temperatures as rapidly as home brewers can. What is rapid to him might not be rapid to me.

--GF

Offline Oginme

  • BeerSmith Grandmaster Brewer
  • *****
  • Posts: 3150
  • Goats, guitars, and a home brew; Life is good!
    • Longvu LaManchas
Re: Need Some Help!
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2017, 05:26:58 PM »

tell me about it it seems like every time I help someone, I get negative karma, and then when someone else is wrong they get positive, I mean its not really bothering me, but as to brewfun, ive had some inaccurate information from him in the past and mostly just ignore him at this point, its nothing personal.


I don't know or care to know what information you received from BrewFun which you may think is inaccurate, but you ignore him at your own expense.  BrewFun has helped many, many people on this forum and, though we may not agree on everything, BrewFun's insight is usually pretty much nuts on and thought provoking. 

I've made a pretty good clone of Anchor steam ale and what he said above is pretty much how I've done it.  One thing to consider is that brewing practices on a large scale is not always replicated on smaller systems and vice versa. 
Recycle your grains, feed them to a goat!

Offline Ck27

  • BeerSmith Grandmaster Brewer
  • *****
  • Posts: 529
  • BeerSmith's Unofficial Spam Police.... Do Not Spam
Re: Need Some Help!
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2017, 05:40:37 PM »

tell me about it it seems like every time I help someone, I get negative karma, and then when someone else is wrong they get positive, I mean its not really bothering me, but as to brewfun, ive had some inaccurate information from him in the past and mostly just ignore him at this point, its nothing personal.


I don't know or care to know what information you received from BrewFun which you may think is inaccurate, but you ignore him at your own expense.  BrewFun has helped many, many people on this forum and, though we may not agree on everything, BrewFun's insight is usually pretty much nuts on and thought provoking. 

I've made a pretty good clone of Anchor steam ale and what he said above is pretty much how I've done it.  One thing to consider is that brewing practices on a large scale is not always replicated on smaller systems and vice versa.

Trust me I know, can we get back on topic and stop with the inforum bickering please.

Offline BOB357

  • BeerSmith Grandmaster Brewer
  • *****
  • Posts: 721
  • Beer is my bucket list!
Re: Need Some Help!
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2017, 06:59:56 PM »

[/quote]

Trust me I know, can we get back on topic and stop with the inforum bickering please.
[/quote]

The topic of the post is, "Need Some Help!". It looks to me like several members have been offering just that. I will attempt to do the same one time only.

First, let me remind you of something you've more than likely read or heard more than once. You could follow the way a commercial brewery produces a particular beer perfectly and not come close to matching their beer. Hell, if you and I brewed the same recipe odds are that they would be noticeably different just because of the differences in our equipment and processes. Think about how great the difference is between Anchor's system and yours, let alone process differences between commercial and home brewers.

My best advice is to read what has been posted in this thread, search through California Common recipes and find what they have in common, especially the medal winners, and add the info you got from Anchor. Once you have done your research take your best shot at brewing the beer, evaluate the finished product and tweak it as needed the next time.
Bob

Offline GigaFemto

  • BeerSmith Grandmaster Brewer
  • *****
  • Posts: 356
  • Muonic Matter Rocks!
Re: Need Some Help!
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2017, 10:32:37 PM »
Good advice from Bob. I am in the San Francisco Bay Area, and have been a fan of Anchor Steam since sometime around 1980. When I first brewed a California Common I tried to make it like Anchor Steam, and it was OK but not great. Then I gave up on trying to duplicate the original and just tried to make something that tastes good. I was increasingly happy with the results as I tweaked it, and decided to have a taste-off with my last batch compared to Anchor Steam. The color was almost identical, with mine being a touch darker. The foam was nearly identical, with mine dissipating a bit sooner. The taste was rated as being the same in quality, but with mine being stronger or more intense than Anchor Steam. I was actually quite surprised that I had ended up so close to the original except with more saturated flavor. I love this beer and will brew it again in a couple of months. I don't know if it will come out exactly the same as last time, but I know it will be good!

I can provide my recipe, but as Bob said, that may not produce the same results for you.

--GF

Offline Ck27

  • BeerSmith Grandmaster Brewer
  • *****
  • Posts: 529
  • BeerSmith's Unofficial Spam Police.... Do Not Spam
Re: Need Some Help!
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2017, 02:51:59 AM »
Good advice from Bob. I am in the San Francisco Bay Area, and have been a fan of Anchor Steam since sometime around 1980. When I first brewed a California Common I tried to make it like Anchor Steam, and it was OK but not great. Then I gave up on trying to duplicate the original and just tried to make something that tastes good. I was increasingly happy with the results as I tweaked it, and decided to have a taste-off with my last batch compared to Anchor Steam. The color was almost identical, with mine being a touch darker. The foam was nearly identical, with mine dissipating a bit sooner. The taste was rated as being the same in quality, but with mine being stronger or more intense than Anchor Steam. I was actually quite surprised that I had ended up so close to the original except with more saturated flavor. I love this beer and will brew it again in a couple of months. I don't know if it will come out exactly the same as last time, but I know it will be good!

I can provide my recipe, but as Bob said, that may not produce the same results for you.

--GF

I brewed it and suprisingly the water they use is actually close to the bottled I used. The beer is fermenting right now slowly but it is fermenting. I went with what I was recommended

2 row (California) and Crystal 40, I got the color exactly as I was told 12.0SRM. Fermenting at 60F let rise up to 70 during final 3 days. After fermentation they brew up another batch of same wort and add it to the fermented beer, which ferments again and carbonates the beer and then they bottle it. I will do the same thing. It is a bit crazy but that's what they said so I'll do it as close as I can they told me primary fermentation is normally done in 3 days then they drop it to a tank to condition it.

KellerBrauer

  • Guest
Re: Need Some Help!
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2017, 06:42:51 AM »

I brewed it and suprisingly the water they use is actually close to the bottled I used. The beer is fermenting right now slowly but it is fermenting. I went with what I was recommended

2 row (California) and Crystal 40, I got the color exactly as I was told 12.0SRM. Fermenting at 60F let rise up to 70 during final 3 days. After fermentation they brew up another batch of same wort and add it to the fermented beer, which ferments again and carbonates the beer and then they bottle it. I will do the same thing. It is a bit crazy but that's what they said so I'll do it as close as I can they told me primary fermentation is normally done in 3 days then they drop it to a tank to condition it.

Greetings Ck27 - There is a great deal of information in this thread, some of is centered around your initial inquiry: "Need Some Help!".  So I will attempt to do just that even though you have already begun fermenting your brew.  So, the information is here for other brewers, and you, if you choose to brew another California Common sometime in the future.

According to an article published in BYO dated December, 2014, Anchor Brewing Company's Anchor Beer is stepped through the mash beginning at: "122F, 145F and 156F before Mash-out".  The detailed article did not state the timeframe in which this incremental temperature change took place.  The author of the article did, however, create a clone of the recipe and used a single step infusion at 149F for a successful mash conversion.

According to the article, the reason for their multi-step mash process, which began well before the 1960's, was because the malts produced at the time were not nearly as modified as they are now.  Therefore, the multi-step conversion was necessary to adequately extract all the sugars.  A little known fact on this subject is that when Fritz Maytag bought Anchor Brewing in the mid 1960's, the original brewmasters left the brewery and Mr. Maytag was forced to hire new brewers.  The story goes that none of the men he hired had any brewing experience, other than what they learned in the one-day crash coarse they received from the original brewmasters prior to their departure.  So the new "Brewmasters" simply followed instructions they received and little has changed since.

Lastly, very few of the brewers that contribute to this forum are professional brewers (folks who make a living brewing beer).  Instead, most of us are simply satisfying a deep desire to create a beverage we can enjoy and be proud of.  That's said, none of us know everything.  So, when we have questions, we take to this forum, and others, and ask questions in hopes of finding answers.  Personally, when I see an answer coming from a brewer such as BrewFun, who has logged over 1900 posts and 149 applauds, I take the information that brewer offers to heart because that brewer has most likely been brewing a lot longer than I have and has obviously helped a lot of brewers with advise and suggestions.  So, moving forward, please consider the content of your responses - all of them- when posting to this forum.

Thank you!

 

modification