PH Estimation with water profiles

So I've been using other PH estimation software and checking it with my PH meter to ensure I'm getting accurate results and I'm always pretty close. But never right on the money with them. I'm sure my PH meter is calibrated and I always take the reading at room temp. I just recently decided to use the BeerSmith Water tool, and had a question about making a custom water profile. I'll try to explain this without being confusing. I'll use pictures. So I input my home water profile into the system and add what I normally do to balance out my water. I make it the total water for the particular beer I'm brewing. Picture below:





I click on the "Save Totals" button and get this screen:





The PH that is shown on the screen above does not change when I adjust the ingredients (Gypsum, Calcium Chloride, ect.), it just stays at 7.00. So I tested it and added my original water profile with no additions and then a new profile with additions to the same recipe and I get two different Estimated PH readings, obviously.

 





So I get that it is taking the additions to the water into account but is it also taking the 7.00PH into account from the second picture when I go to create a new water profile with my original water plus additions?? Do I have to mix up a batch of water, add my additions, then take a PH reading to input that into the new water profile with additions? I hope this doesn't sound too confusing, I'm almost confusing myself. I only ask because when I used the updated water profile with additions it's telling me if I want to get down into the 5.2 range I would need almost 7.5ml of Lactic Acid which seems like a lot. I know I could use more Gypsum in the mix to lower the PH and try to balance out the Sulfate/Chloride Ratio after that, but if the water PH isn't updating to reflect the the additions when I "Save Totals" and create a new profile it's going to throw the Estimated Mash PH off. Well hope someone can decipher what I'm trying to ask here. Thanks in advance. Cheers!!

Almost forgot, I'm using a Blichmann BrewEasy so I use a BIAB profile when calculating my beers so the additions are for the total volumes needed for the brew, that's why it's 8.57gal total water.

Clay

Clay,

Too many people get hung up on the base pH of the water source.  Water has no buffering capability at all and the pH of the water only reflects the minerals in the water and the form in which they (specifically CO32-) are present.  In your example you end up with a different pH, not because the starting water pH is different, but because you have double the alkalinity, expressed as CaCO3 which buffers the change in pH when the grains are added to the water. 

The majority of the pH of your mash is controlled by the grains.  You can affect just where it ends up by using mineral salts, carbonate salts, and/or acids.  As you can see from your example, doubling the alkalinity from your base value will make only a small change in the estimated pH. 

So if you want to get the mash pH down to your intended target, you can increase the mineral content accordingly or resort to acid.

Your present amounts of Sulfate and Chloride are (at least in my experiences) reasonable for a balanced flavor profile.  Personally, I don't put much emphasis on the specific Sulfate to Chloride ratio, as 10 ppm of Sulfate to 5 ppm of Chloride will not have much of a flavor impact in the malt flavors or in drying out the finish of your beer even though the ratio is 2:1.  On the other hand, a Chloride content of 100 ppm and a Sulfate content of 200 ppm will not only bring forth the malt flavors in the initial taste of the beer, but also provide much more to a dry finish.  Same ratio, different results.  It is the dry finish that emphasizes the hop bitterness.

If you go the acid route, tread carefully with the BeerSmith recommendations.  I have found the recommendation for acidulated malt to be about 10x higher than what I use and others have reported that the acid levels recommended are about 2x to 5x too high.

For more information on water chemistry, I highly recommend downloading the water knowledge publication by Martin Brungard which can be found at https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge

Oginme said:

Clay,

Too many people get hung up on the base pH of the water source.  Water has no buffering capability at all and the pH of the water only reflects the minerals in the water and the form in which they (specifically CO32-) are present.  In your example you end up with a different pH, not because the starting water pH is different, but because you have double the alkalinity, expressed as CaCO3 which buffers the change in pH when the grains are added to the water. 

The majority of the pH of your mash is controlled by the grains.  You can affect just where it ends up by using mineral salts, carbonate salts, and/or acids.  As you can see from your example, doubling the alkalinity from your base value will make only a small change in the estimated pH. 

So if you want to get the mash pH down to your intended target, you can increase the mineral content accordingly or resort to acid.

Your present amounts of Sulfate and Chloride are (at least in my experiences) reasonable for a balanced flavor profile.  Personally, I don't put much emphasis on the specific Sulfate to Chloride ratio, as 10 ppm of Sulfate to 5 ppm of Chloride will not have much of a flavor impact in the malt flavors or in drying out the finish of your beer even though the ratio is 2:1.  On the other hand, a Chloride content of 100 ppm and a Sulfate content of 200 ppm will not only bring forth the malt flavors in the initial taste of the beer, but also provide much more to a dry finish.  Same ratio, different results.  It is the dry finish that emphasizes the hop bitterness.

If you go the acid route, tread carefully with the BeerSmith recommendations.  I have found the recommendation for acidulated malt to be about 10x higher than what I use and others have reported that the acid levels recommended are about 2x to 5x too high.

For more information on water chemistry, I highly recommend downloading the water knowledge publication by Martin Brungard which can be found at https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge

Click to expand...

Oginme,

Thanks much. I did a few more hours of reading after I posted this just to ease my mind. I'm picking up what you are putting down. I was just unsure how BS calculated the water PH if at all, but it makes sense now. I'm actually using Bru'n Water now and read a bunch of his stuff last night. It really helped. Got my new PH meter and I'm giving it a go this weekend on a simple Pale Ale, the same recipe I brewed last weekend to compare side to side. I'm really uping the sulfate using what Bru'n Water says is "good" for a Pale Ale just to experiment and see. Thanks for the reply though, it cleared some stuff up. Cheers!!