Author Topic: BS3 mash volume errors  (Read 4019 times)

Offline BarryTheHatchet

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BS3 mash volume errors
« on: June 15, 2018, 10:45:48 PM »
Hi

I seem to be having a problem with mash water volume calculations for partial mash recipes. I have tested this on partial mash recipes imported from BS2 and a test recipe created in BS3.

For example - When I change the weight of pale malt, the mash water volumes for mash in, mash out and sparge water can change dramatically to erroneous values. The Grain Mash Weight is also not updated until I open the Mash tab (which forces another calculation of mash volumes). To correct the mash water volumes I have to re-select the mash profile from the list.

I also noticed that after adjusting the grain weight if I changed other values such as hops and yeast that the mash volumes also change. I'm new to BS, but I'm pretty sure the mash volume shouldn't change if I add a packet of yeast to the recipe.

Perhaps someone can confirm this behavior on their system?

I'm running a registered version of BS3 on Windows 7
Thanks


Offline BarryTheHatchet

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Re: BS3 mash volume errors
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2018, 01:04:03 AM »
With more testing I was able to replicate the problem on a new BS3 install on Windows 8. There was no previous install of BS2 or BS3. The Win 8 install of BS3 is a default installation running in 21 day trial mode. No imports of recipes, equipment, ingredients or mash profiles. Just a bog-standard new install.

To replicate the problem I basically did the following-
1. Download, install and run BS3.
2. Changed the units to Metric.
3. Add new recipe. Change recipe type to Partial Mash.
4. Change Equipment profile to Extract standard 5 Gal. Edit the Equip profile to partial mash.
5. Select Mash Profile - Single infusion, medium body.
6. Build a basic recipe using base malt, speciality malt, DME, bittering hops, yeast.
7. Add the following fields to the recipe section below the ingredients (adjacent to the style guide) - Select Fields - Total Grains, Mash Grain Wt, Mash Volume Needed and Sparge Volume.
8. Change the amount of base malt using the Increase Amt button. The mash volumes change (as I would expect)
9. Change the amount of hops or the packets of yeast and the mash volumes change. (not what I expected)
10. To reset the mash volumes to normal I had to re-select the Mash Profile from the default list.

Let me know if you need any other details.

Cheers
BTH

Offline Oginme

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Re: BS3 mash volume errors
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2018, 06:25:19 AM »
OK, lets clear up some nomenclature first:  Mash Volume Needed is not the water volume, but the volume of water plus grains used in the mash.  To get the value of the infusion water, you need to use the field 'tot mash water'.

Now, I went through the steps you listed.  When I change the grains using the 'increase amt' or 'decrease amt', the program immediately adjusts the three values: tot mash water, sparge water, and mash volume needed to compensate for the adjusted grain weight.  When I changed the grains by direct edit of a specific grain, the program responded in kind.

As I adjust the hops or yeast, the mash volumes and water amounts do not change.

In short, I cannot replicate the issue you are describing and suspect that since you are looking at the wrong parameter to judge the water volumes, that may be the case with the grain amount changes.  I cannot explain your seeing the water volumes change as a result of hop or yeast amounts changing since I cannot replicate it.



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Offline BarryTheHatchet

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Re: BS3 mash volume errors
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2018, 07:20:34 AM »
OK, lets clear up some nomenclature first:  Mash Volume Needed is not the water volume, but the volume of water plus grains used in the mash.  To get the value of the infusion water, you need to use the field 'tot mash water'.
Thanks, that was my understanding. I display that figure to ensure I don't exceed the capacity of my mash tun.

Attached are some screen shots. The first shows my test recipe after it's opened, the second image is after I have increased the grain volume by 0.1kg followed by increasing the yeast by 1 packet and shows the mash volumes have changed.

To correct the problem I have to re-select the mash profile from the list.

If I open the recipe and only adjust the hops, yeast or DME added after the boil then the volumes remain unchanged, as you would expect.

Please let me know if I can provide any other information to get this resolved.
Thanks
BTH

Offline BarryTheHatchet

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Re: BS3 mash volume errors
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2018, 09:06:28 AM »
So I did more testing and it looks like the Single Infusion mash profiles produce the erroneous mash water volumes. My testing has been restricted to Single Infusion, Light Body, Medium Body and Heavy Body.  I can't say if any other mash profiles also produce the problem.

I was also able to replicate the problem by loading "BeerSmith's Dry Irish Stout" from the BS3 sample recipes and changing the mash profile to Single Infusion, Light Body. Increase the amount of Pale Malt. (I used the Increase Amt buttons) Make a note of the mash water volumes. Increase and decrease the amount of EKG hops or the yeast. The Tot Mash Water increases with every change to the hops or yeast value. Tot Mash Volume seems to only increase, not decrease. If you re-select the Single Infusion, Light Body mash profile the mash water volumes reset to normal. Changing the amount of Pale Malt starts the error again.

A BIAB mash profile does not produce the error.

Offline Oginme

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Re: BS3 mash volume errors
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2018, 11:13:08 AM »
Honestly, I cannot recreate this issue using the same recipe and amounts you have set.  One thing that may be at issue is that you scaled or set the recipe volume up to 23 l and that your mash efficiency and brew house efficiency are both at 70%.  This seems at odds, unless you edited the equipment profile to set the loss to trub and chiller down to zero. 

With a 19 liter pot, you must be topping off volume into your fermenter, which may be causing a problem from a grain/mash tun volume standpoint.  When I do this, I still don't see the volumes changing with changes in hop or yeast components.

Recycle your grains, feed them to a goat!

Offline BarryTheHatchet

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Re: BS3 mash volume errors
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2018, 08:30:02 PM »
Thanks for looking into this Oginme. I captured a video to demonstrate what I'm doing to replicate the error (attached below)

It's possibly caused by a combination of the Single Infusion mash profile and using the Increase/Decrease Amt buttons (as opposed to directly editing the amounts). 

Open a full grain sample recipe (BeerSmith's Dry Irish Stout, in this example)
Change the mash profile to Single Infusion, Medium Body
Use the Increase Amt button to change the amount of pale malt
Use the Increase/Decrease Amt buttons to change the hops and yeast
Watch the volume change in the Tot Mash Water field



Offline jsbull

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Re: BS3 mash volume errors
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2018, 12:36:10 PM »
I am also having issues with this. I believe it is related to the Total Grains vs. Mash Grain Wt. When I add ingredients, it doesn't seem to update the Mash Grain Wt 100% of the time. Then, if I manually adjust the amount, it seems to incrementally increase the Mash Volume Needed. I once changed the Mash Grain Wt to 0 and it increased the Mash Volume Needed to like 1900000 gal. If I typed a new number in the Mash Grain Wt field, it added more. If I made it a negative number, it seemed to make it even more.

After reading this thread, I changed the mash schedule again and it reset everything.

The whole thing messed up my new recipe creation as I thought I was over capacity, reduced everything super far, then it reset and went from 23 gal to like 7 gal. At least I know the trick about how to reset it by re-selecting the mash schedule. Thanks for looking into it further.

I'm on Windows 10 by the way with a single infusion HERMs schedule.

Offline jsbull

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Re: BS3 mash volume errors
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2018, 03:39:09 PM »
I'm still dealing with this issue on all of my custom recipes. I have to constantly re-select the mash schedule to get it to correct the volumes.

Is there a fix in the work for this? I'm happy to Skype with someone to show them the example if needed.

Offline Oginme

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Re: BS3 mash volume errors
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2018, 04:55:39 PM »
While I would like to help I have yet to be able to replicate your issue.  Of you think it has something to do with the equipment or mesh profile, then export a recipe that illustrates your problem and post it here.  That way, working with your recipe and your profiles I may see something that will help. 

One question that comes to mind is are you working with local or cloud storage of your beersmith files?
Recycle your grains, feed them to a goat!

Offline BarryTheHatchet

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Re: BS3 mash volume errors
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2018, 06:56:39 PM »
The water volume bug is still causing problems for me as well. I have added a Robobrew to my equipment and it effects those recipes as well. As suggested I have attached a recipe. My system is Windows 7 and I am using local storage for my beersmith files.

I tested with a fresh install on a Windows 8 machine. The bug occurs on the default BS recipes using default BS equipment.

 

modification