Author Topic: Order of whirloppl additions  (Read 3257 times)

Offline dunbruha jones

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Order of whirloppl additions
« on: August 18, 2018, 09:12:35 AM »
Hi,
I am adding hops at different times (and thus at different temperatures) in the whirlpool.  For example, I add hops right at flameout (approx 194F), wait 5 minutes, then chill down to 170F, when I add more hops for 30 minutes.  So the first batch of hops gets 5 min at 194F, and then 30 more minutes at 170F.

But the order shown in Beersmith is revers of this. Here is a screenshot:



In my thinking, the 194F hops should be shown first, but they display after the 170F hops.  Is there something that I can set to change this?

Offline GigaFemto

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Re: Order of whirloppl additions
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2018, 11:13:08 AM »
I think the whirlpool time that BS uses to sort the order is the total time, not just time at the top temperature. Your 194 F addition is listed as 5 mins, so BS thinks these are being added 25 mins after the hops being whirlpooled for 30 mins. You could change the time to 35 mins and they should go to the top. The IBU contributions would be higher because they would probably be based on 35 mins at 194F.

--GF

Offline dunbruha jones

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Re: Order of whirlpool additions
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2018, 12:14:41 PM »
I think the whirlpool time that BS uses to sort the order is the total time, not just time at the top temperature. Your 194 F addition is listed as 5 mins, so BS thinks these are being added 25 mins after the hops being whirlpooled for 30 mins. You could change the time to 35 mins and they should go to the top. The IBU contributions would be higher because they would probably be based on 35 mins at 194F.

--GF
I tried that, but as you point out, the IBUs were off, because they only spend 5 min at the higher temperatures. But if I leave it as it is, then the Brew Steps page has me adding the 5 minute hops AFTER the 30 minute hops.

Using the total time for sorting (and for IBU calculations) doesn't seem to make much sense in the whirlpool, as the temperature decreases with time. I guess it works fine if you only have one whirlpool addition, but with multiple ones it is not working for me.

Offline GigaFemto

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Re: Order of whirloppl additions
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2018, 03:42:03 PM »
I have a brew coming up with 3 whirlpool hop additions, 10 minutes apart. I have no idea what the temperatures will be for any except the first one, but since the IBUs are pretty low for all of them I am not worrying about it. By putting in the total time BS puts them in the right order for me.

--GF

Offline Oginme

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Re: Order of whirlpool additions
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2018, 06:03:56 PM »
I tried that, but as you point out, the IBUs were off, because they only spend 5 min at the higher temperatures. But if I leave it as it is, then the Brew Steps page has me adding the 5 minute hops AFTER the 30 minute hops.

Using the total time for sorting (and for IBU calculations) doesn't seem to make much sense in the whirlpool, as the temperature decreases with time. I guess it works fine if you only have one whirlpool addition, but with multiple ones it is not working for me.

Actually, even though the temperature is dropping, the isomerization is still proceeding at a very slow rate until the temperature goes below around 180F  (temperature varies depending upon who did the study) or so.

The way to do this is to set the time to the total time of exposure of the hops.  You then set the temperature to set the isomerization rate. 

You say that the IBU calculations are off, have you tested this to confirm the IBU levels or are you just going by the fact that the number is higher than you would like or think it should be?  The IBU calculations are so fraught with questions about accuracy for any system other than that of the originator.  The calculation (and the test method as well) does not take into account other hop compounds which contribute to the impression of bitterness.  Thus, the real determination of the bitterness is your sensory evaluation of your end product.

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Offline Oginme

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Re: Order of whirloppl additions
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2018, 06:07:45 PM »
I have a brew coming up with 3 whirlpool hop additions, 10 minutes apart. I have no idea what the temperatures will be for any except the first one, but since the IBUs are pretty low for all of them I am not worrying about it. By putting in the total time BS puts them in the right order for me.

--GF

What I have done from the beginning of the inclusion of whirlpool bitterness contribution in BeerSmith, was to measure the temperature during the duration of the whirlpool to determine the rate of falling temperature.  Now I can look up this temperature/time chart from several brews and plug in the temperatures and times into the program as they should occur based upon my process.  I still take the temperature of the wort at the time that I make different whirlpool hop additions (and, like you I have done three additions during the whirlpool) to keep this chart up to date with real data.

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Offline dunbruha jones

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Re: Order of whirlpool additions
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2018, 06:56:26 PM »
Actually, even though the temperature is dropping, the isomerization is still proceeding at a very slow rate until the temperature goes below around 180F  (temperature varies depending upon who did the study) or so.

The way to do this is to set the time to the total time of exposure of the hops.  You then set the temperature to set the isomerization rate. 

You say that the IBU calculations are off, have you tested this to confirm the IBU levels or are you just going by the fact that the number is higher than you would like or think it should be?  The IBU calculations are so fraught with questions about accuracy for any system other than that of the originator.  The calculation (and the test method as well) does not take into account other hop compounds which contribute to the impression of bitterness.  Thus, the real determination of the bitterness is your sensory evaluation of your end product.

I get that there are a lot of unknowns about whirlpool extraction.  But this program does attempt to come up with a number. And it results in a big difference: 73 IBU (total) at 5 min vs 133 IBU at 35 min!  I don't know the actual IBUs (and as you point out, what really matters is the taste), but setting the time to the total duration really throws off the entire recipe.  If there is no way to follow the temperature decreases for a given addition of hops, I guess I could formulate the recipe setting the % alpha to zero for the whirlpool additions to avoid throwing off the entire thing.

I do measure the temperature at the beginning and end of each addition, but I don't understand how to enter that information into the program (it wants one temperature for the entire time...)

Offline Oginme

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Re: Order of whirloppl additions
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2018, 06:36:23 AM »
The program does indeed have a model for estimation of IBU from whirlpool addition of hops.  There have been a few papers written on the isomerization of hop alpha acids during the whirlpool in commercial systems and from this, there has been a model which remains untested on a home brew level (if there is, I have not run across the published results). 

I see the screenshot of your recipe, but without the .bsmx file of the recipe, cannot determine how your system is set up and replicate this change in IBU. 

I don't quite understand how the IBU calculation "throws off the entire recipe", in that the IBU calculation is independent of the malt bill, gravity, attenuation and does not change those numbers. The only thing it affects is your impression or expectation of the bitterness and if you trust your system and the results you get from whirlpool hop additions, you should be able to predict in terms of flavor and bitterness impression. 

Please don't get me wrong, I am not defending the model nor saying it is correct (it is far from that for my system).  What I am trying to say is that as home brewers we all (me included) tend to trust a faulty number without understanding what the ramifications of different hops addition methods actually give us for perceived bitterness.  I was a bit disappointed that Brad took out the % whirlpool utilization in the bitterness options as it allowed me to adjust the numbers from my perceived bitterness with an adjusted calculated number.   Instead, he relies on the models from the published papers on the relationship between whirlpool temperature and % isomerization to give us a utilization value.  So in BeerSmith the initial addition temperature sets the % utilization rate for those hops. 

So, the way that I have gotten around this is to use the whirlpool addition timing to configure the hop additions and the temperature to set the utilization rate for my expectations of bitterness.  I think I have a pretty good lock on my system after brewing a series of wheat beers where the only hop additions were in the whirlpool at different times and temperatures.  It came in really handy in designing my own NEIPA recipes for expectations and back calculating the actual bitterness I wanted from the boil addition (I typically run from 18 to 30 IBU from boil depending upon the types of whirlpool and dry hops I add).



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Offline dunbruha jones

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Re: Order of whirloppl additions
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2018, 12:20:04 PM »
So, the way that I have gotten around this is to use the whirlpool addition timing to configure the hop additions and the temperature to set the utilization rate for my expectations of bitterness.  I think I have a pretty good lock on my system after brewing a series of wheat beers where the only hop additions were in the whirlpool at different times and temperatures.  It came in really handy in designing my own NEIPA recipes for expectations and back calculating the actual bitterness I wanted from the boil addition (I typically run from 18 to 30 IBU from boil depending upon the types of whirlpool and dry hops I add).

I appreciate your helpful answers.