I'm getting the hang of AG but a few questions regarding water

A few questions.
First off my last batch was a saison. I used Beersmith software. I had 11.75lbs of grain. In the back of the clone recipe book, it said to use about 4 gallons of mash water and 5 gallons of sparge water. I did this and ended up very light in my preboil gravity. Normally I would just fill up the kettle until I knew I would have just around enough to get 5 gallons after the boil. This time I filled up to about 6.75 gallons (all the sparge water). My OG was 13 points light. When I put the recipe into Beersmith it was callilng for less mash water and a lot less sparge water. I never heard of using equal runnings. I would empty mash tun- fill up with sparge water, stir lets sit for 10 minutes. Then fill again with remaining sparge wate(what was left) stir and let sit for 10 minutes
So my questions are this:

I ended up light on my preboil gravity because I used too much sparge water right? That would do it?

I only stirred the mash about 5 times in 90 minutes. I should have done that
a lot more to help the efficiency right?

Does a lower efficiency mean a lower gravity and the two are correlated? I figured my mash efficiency around 62. Does that guarantee the beer will be watered down? Does a lower efficiency always mean a lower gravity?

How do most of you calculate the mash water and sparge water needed? Do you ever have more sparge water left and have enough wort collected you don't need the rest of the water? If you don't have enough sparge water to get your target wort volume do you heat water and add until you get it?

How do you calculate the wort volume you need preboil

Sorry for all the questions. My first 5 batches I just followed instructions and was using general info. I want to get this down to specifics now. Thanks!

Hmmmmmmmmm,  some good questions.  I'll give what little insight I have but I'm sure others will add a lot more. 

First, there could be any number of reasons for your efficiency and water issues.  From reading your post my first question is do you have your equipment set up right in BeerSmith.  You really need to get that dialed in, in order to get BS working the best it can for your particular set up. 

Second, If I end up with too much water in the boil kettle I just boil down until I'm where I need to be.  Having said that though, I'm not normally off by all that much.  Again, BS will get your pretty close regarding sparge volume, mash volume etc.  So much depends on that equipment set up. 

I never stir my mash when its at rest.  I'm not sure thats even recommended?  Of course I use a cooler so I don't want to lose any temp so I keep the lid shut.  I have recently discovered that a good mill is the best thing for efficiency.  I had efficiency issues, tried everything but buying my own barley crusher has landed me pretty consistently in the low to mid 80 percentile as far as efficiency goes. 

A lower efficiency doesn't necessarily mean a lower gravity but the two are often correlated (be careful not to confuse correlation with causation).  In fact the bigger beer you make the lower efficiency you should expect all other things being equal.  This has to do with sparge volume either not rinsing (fly sparging) or being able to leech as much sugar into the solution as there is less water to do the trick.  If you are a stickler about the OG number you can increase your grain bill and sacrifice some efficiency to get that OG where you want it.  Or, if your nuts about efficiency (I think more people are than will admit)  You can increase you sparge volume, which of course will increase your kettle volume.  If your kettle can handle it, you can then compensate with a longer boil.  Both methods have pros and cons.

I personally allow beersmith to calculate my volumes needed.  These volumes are based on a few things.  First, I generally use 1.25 qts per lb of grain for my mash volume.  I believe this is the default in BS and the generally accepted number for mash volume (I've seen some people recommend more and others less but this number comes up the most).  It is also predicated on my boil volume.  You can (or rather need) to put this into beersmith yourself but off the top of my head its not as straight forward as that.  I think you need to tell BS what you want your final batch size to be (I generally shoot for 5.5) and then mess with your evaporation rate. 

After you have these things figured out you can enter them into BS and it should get your pretty close

Finally, this is related to the last question but it took some trial and error to figure out how much kettle volume I need to get to 5.5 after a 60 minute boil.  This was done simply by measuring how much I had before the boil and how much after to determine my evaporation rate (I don't lose any to trub at this point since it all goes into the primary for the first few days)  so I could then figure out how much I needed to boil to end with approx 5.5.  If I'm a little off I don't sweat it.  Last week I was a little low but my OG reading was a little high.  Easy problem to solve, just added the water to get me to 5.5, retook my  OG reading and I was much closer to where I wanted to be.

Hope this helps but I'm sure others will add (or correct if I've said anything grossly wrong)

+1 on the above tips.  I'd also wonder if the clone recipe specs of 5 gals mash and 4 gals sparge water perhaps crossover from "recipe guidance" to "equipment specs?"  With any recipe, the often unpublished parts of the recipe are the brewhouse efficiency, the water/grist ratio, and capacity details about the equipment.  It can be difficult to know everything the original brewer did to reach his OG on his equipment, and those details change with each different source of a recipe.  As you do more AG batches, you'll learn what your setup does, enter that in BSmith, and then be able to replicate recipes on your equipment more reliably. 

+1 also for Wildrover's and MaltLicker's tips!
Equipment, Equipment, Equipment. Dialing in equipment is key.
Here are my experiences:
I always start with about 1 gallon more than B.S. recommends for the sparge water. The reason for this is to make sure I have all the sugar's off the grains. If I end up using the extra water, I just increase the boil time by about an hour (No Hops addition at that point). This also ensures that I always hit my Boil Volume and compensates for any extra water absorption by the grains.

For my water/grain ratio I have made my own Mash profiles and adjusted the water to compensate for a Mash Out. For instance, a Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch sparge: I mash in with 1 qt/lb, and the Mash Out is 1.6 qt/lb.

I also stir my Grist every 10-15 min, What can I say, I like the smell! I will have to do some research about this. Who knows, it may be wrong, but that's the way I was taught.

As far as the efficiency goes, We all strive for better efficiencies! But it is not a deal breaker if I only get into the 60's. Just remember this, Your Making BEER! How bad can it be! I wrote a little blog about it, you can read it here: http://www.uselessbrewing.com/?p=61 . By no stretch of the imagination am I an expert, like I said, it's just my experience.

Wort Volume pre-boil is simply a factor of Evaporation and how vigorously you boil and your final volume. Most everyone has their evaporation rate set between 9% and 15%. This is yet another setting you will need to dial in. http://www.uselessbrewing.com/?p=69 . I also have my final batch size set to 5.5. I also don't worry about trub in the primary, mainly because I use a nylon Paint strainer to keep the hops out of the primary. But I put everyting in the primary, Hot break and all. Is that Right or Wrong, There are people that will argue both. For me, I think of it as food for the Yeasties!

linusstick said:

Sorry for all the questions. My first 5 batches I just followed instructions and was using general info. I want to get this down to specifics now. Thanks!

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One more thing to consider: The biggest change in my beer quality/taste came from "fermentation temperature control" I keep on the lower end of the recommended temp range for the primary fermentation. I do this by keeping the primary fermenter in a water bath in the spare bathtub with a towel around the fermenter. As a test, I made a double batch of English Ale, along with a massive Starter which was then split and pitched into tow Primaries. I fermented one in a closet, and the other was in the water bath. The Water bath stayed at 65deg and the other went as high as 74. It was like Night and Day, there was no comparison between the two. The Water bath was much better, it had Spicy Notes, it had a better mouth feel. Ok now I'm rambling. Sorry!

Hope this helps

Cheers
Preston

Useless,

Fermentation temp control is by far my biggest challenge.  I live in an aprtment so I don't have room for dedicated fridge (or the know how for modifying one).  Having said that, I've recently bought a cheap rubbermaid tub that holds the fermentation bucket and I keep two towels rotating from the freezer to the tub wrapped around the fermentation bucket.  I'll also drop the freezer's ice in there a couple times during the week to get the water temp in the rubber maid tub down as much as possible.  Aside from that I'm at a loss as to what I could be doing to control the temp.  Living in FL makes it tough though recently we've had a nice cold front which believe it or not has helped.

Is it wrong to wish for cold weather for no other reason than you believe it will help your beer? Any way I digress?  Any insight into fermentation control would be helpful

thanks

Nice posts, guys.  I'm going to start the water baths since many of my beers have had a distinct "homebrew flavor" that I couldn't identify; then a week or so ago I had a Port Brewing Panzer Imperial Pilsner-- I did what I usually do with bottle-conditioned beers, which is pour gently and drink.  Sometimes I swirl up the yeasty goo at the bottom of the bottle and taste it (out of the bottle, not poured in the glass) just for educational purposes.  I did this with the Panzer and BLAMMO, there's my homebrew flavor!  So I'm thinking my homebrew flavor I'd like to eliminate is yeast-related, maybe the fermentation temp, maybe not letting the yeast flocculate out, whatever... this gives me a good place to start.  A chest freezer will give me a better place to start, but I'm space-and-budget-limited right now.

I brew & ferment in the garage so I'm thinking light t-shirt over the carboy, sitting in an upside-down trashcan lid and checking the water daily (it's been super-dry here in San Diego lately so it should help a lot).

More on topic, I still haven't run through this link:
http://www.beersmith.com/equipment_setup.htm
yet, so maybe that'll help me out.  I picked one of the defaults that was "kinda close" to my setup, both for equipment and for a mash/sparge profile.  

As far as stirring the mash, I do it too.  Palmer says, (http://howtobrew.com/section3/chapter18-5.html):

Stir the mash every 15-20 minutes to prevent cold spots and help ensure a uniform conversion. Monitor the temperature each time you stir. If the temperature drops by less than 5 degrees over the hour, nothing further needs to be done.

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but I know I've also read concerns about extracting tannins and aeration if you stir (aside from the obvious "it lets the hot out" problem).  I think it was "Brewing Lager Beer" by Noonan, I'll check when I get home. 

Either way it's surely nothing to worry about...

Definitely speedy wort chilling and ferm temp control are two top factors for consistently good results.

Related to cheap and space-efficient ferm temp control, I started with a foam ferm chiller built to this design..........http://www.olderascal.com/brewing/fermentationchiller/

The original site does not come up at the moment, but if you Google "son of fermentation chiller" you'll get hits. 

It is very easy to build and works quite well with a PC fan moving air over frozen 2-liter bottle(s).  The big advantage is that it can be moved aside when not in use.  Not that you ever want it unfilled. 

Is it wrong to wish for cold weather for no other reason than you believe it will help your beer? Any way I digress?  Any insight into fermentation control would be helpful

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Never!
Believe it or not a fan and a wet towel work wonders. You can lower the temp as much as 10 deg F, without ice. Just check to make sure the towel/shirt/whatever stays wet. Believe me I know about hot here in Houston! I have had great luck using my spare steel bathtub, No fan's,it is dark almost 100% of the time (that is until I get nosy and peek in to watch the bubbling! LOL), and it keeps the temps around 65F.

"homebrew flavor"

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"Home Brew Flavor" Hmmm, I thought that was a good thing! LOL. Taste the Yeast swirl in the bottom of the bottle? What, Are You CRAZY! Beer Farts Come to mind! I taste the beer all the way through the process, except for that part. Guess I figured that was waste and did not consider it as part of the brewing process. Beer Farts here I come! My wife will thank you! NOT!
Cheers
Preston

Haha, yeah, "homebrew flavor" is definitely a good thing, maybe I should have said "house flavor," since it has popped up in so many of my beers and is definitely not desirable, although it does tend to diminish with time.

I pretty much try to feel, taste, and smell everything along the way, too... I just figure that if I don't try the yeast at the bottom of the bottle, I'll never know what's so bad about pouring it into the glass, or know what people mean by the phrase "yeast bite" unless I try it out.  It's not like it's gag-inducing or anything.

There's a chapter at the end of "The Essentials of Beer Style" by Fred Eckhardt where he suggests doctoring fresh Budweisers in various ways-- diluted with water (weak), spiked with hop tea (hoppy), spiked with a shot of vodka (strong), left in the sun for two weeks (skunked), spiked with lactic acid (sour), etc etc to get a feel for various beer flavors and what they taste like in a neutral beer... I guess drinking the yeast sludge is kinda like that, for me.

My guts don't really have a problem with the yeast, but at 30 years old, married with two kids, I'm still immature enough that farting is pretty hilarious, so that's a bonus too!

goose on fire said:

My guts don't really have a problem with the yeast, but at 30 years old, married with two kids, I'm still immature enough that farting is pretty hilarious, so that's a bonus too!

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Good Lord! That's funny! Thanks for the laugh. Without being to ummm immature that is... LOL  ;D
Cheers
Preston