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mash & PH

Fatduckbrewery

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Hi All

Within the mash page of BS you have a number of fields, once again the lack of clarity in filling these fields in correctly has confused me.

Field Area; Final Mash PH Adjustments:

Adjusted Mash PH      (Automatically filled in by BS) but I haven't adjusted anything at this point?
Measured Mash PH    (To be filed in by brewer, but when? after adding lactic or before? you cant do it before as you then don't get informed how much acid to add and if you do it changes your results again?)

Target PH                (I set this at 5.3 as standard)
Lactic acid                (I use 80% and set it in my profile as so)
Amount to use          (This figure comes from BS and for me often its too much)

Need some help to understand this section, thanks all.
 
I agree that this is not as clear as it could be. The adjusted mash pH is BeerSmith's prediction based on the water, water adjustment salts, grain bill and any acid that you have added (listed in the Mash pH Acid Additions on the left). The measured mash pH is used in combination with the target pH to determine how much acid BeerSmith recommends to be added to the mash on top of any that is already listed in the Mash pH Acid Addition to the left. The idea here is that you measure your mash pH about 10-15 minutes into the mash period and enter it here. If the measured mash pH is too high, BeerSmith tells you how much acid to add at that time to lower it to the target pH. That is why the section is titled Final Mash pH Adjustments. Many people, including me, find that the acid amounts recommended by BeerSmith are too high.

--GF
 
Hi

Thanks for that, indeed the amounts they recommend are to high, today a good example I should of gone with my gut feeling but believed the computer and my PH dropped down to 5.0 when i was after 5.3.

That section is rather confusing as it also changes data on your session page. I normally, no clue if its right or not check my mash PH at the end, and add a little lactic if needed to bring it down, but struggle to enter that into the current layout.
 
The pH of the mash is important because the enzymes that convert the starches to sugars work best in the pH range from 5.2 - 5.6. Too high a pH can also lead to extraction of tannins from husks. A measurement and adjustment at the end of the mash will not do anything useful except tell you what to do next time. It takes some time for the grains to bring the mash pH down, so measuring right after adding them would be misleading. You want to make a measurement that is soon enough that conversion is not complete so you have a chance to adjust if needed, but not so soon that the pH isn't stable. 10-15 minutes after adding the grains seems to be a good compromise.

--GF
 
I agree with what GF has written above and will add though that the range of 5.2 to 5.6 may be optimal for most of the enzymes looked at to reduce starches to fermentable sugars, the enzymes will still work outside this range; just may take a bit longer to reach the desired endpoint.  I remember hearing Annie Johnson commenting that Pilsner Urquell is mashed at a pH of 4.9 to 5.0 and they produce the prime example of a Czech pilsner.  I've found that for some base malts that I use, my actual mash pH ends up a bit lower than BeerSmith (or Bru'n water, or Mash Made Easy, or EZ Water) predicts so I just adjust the target in the software a few tenths higher and the model brings me right to my actual goal.
 
Thanks all for your input,

So basically when mashing I should simply take a PH reading of the wort at around the 15 - 20 minute phase? and from that add or not a little lactic to bring down the ph to what I desire.

Currently what I do is check and add at the end of the mashing, I also recirculate wort to ensure with the added lactic to ensure i'm getting a more evenly displaced reading. I'm using a Braumeister system so the malts get lifted out of the wort.

Craig
 
There are several ways to tackle mash pH readings and corrections.

The first is exactly what you described.  Take a reading at around 15 minutes into the mash and check pH.  Make corrections and stir into the mash well.  Record finishing pH at the end of the mash.

The second is to measure the pH as above.  If you are anywhere within an acceptable range (5.0 to 5.8), let it ride and record pH at the end of the mash. Plan correction for the next brew session.  This has been my
method for the last few years and I have found that several times when I mash and get a pH of 5.6 to 5.9 at 15 minutes, the pH ends up at 5.4 to 5.6 at the end of the mash.  There are also a few times when I have mashed at 5.6 to 5.8 where the beer turned out exceptional, so I keep the target where it was to get me back to that point.
 
If you notice your mash is too high, what are you actually changing in your next brew set up?

Are you just adding lactic acid or are you changing water profile etc?

I've just been adding lactic when needed to bring it down, i get nervous by all the water management people start describing as where i live in the Netherlands we have lovely drink water so i basically leave it alone.
 
I have a well and the water is very consistent and of very low mineral content.  I have stock profiles for mineral additions to achieve the Calcium, Magnesium, Sulfite, and Chloride levels that I want for the type of beer I am brewing.  The selection of the minerals and salts I add lead to lowering the mash pH.  Rarely am I fighting high pH values but instead increasing the carbonate level to boost the pH back up to my desired range which I do with Sodium bicarbonate.

If facing a high mash pH value,  I have both Lactic and Citric acid that I can add (stealing a bit from SWMBO's cheese making materials) and would add that based upon the actual pH value versus target.  I have learned that the BeerSmith pH adjustment is a bit on the aggressive side, so I would plan on adding about 50% to 60% of the recommended amounts at the beginning and then making further adjustments on the subsequent batch.
 
Hey Guys,

I'm new to adjusting PH and trying to figure out this mash and PH thing and have a couple of additional question. (1) My city water report does not give me specific numbers for the salts, minerals, acids.  They give me a range (example; bicarbonate 108-144, magnesium 2.69-7.78, and so on).  When trying to set up a water profile for my base water, do I just take the median number?  (2) When setting up the water additions/PH for a recipe, BS gives me both a mash addition and a sparge water addition.  If I take a PH reading at 15 minutes in the mash, and BS gives me a correction, do I still use the original additions to the sparge water and include the new numbers?


Thanks,

Ron C
 
Ron, you can go to wardlab.com and order a brewers kit. It's 40+ dollars and they will send you a vial and return envelope... you fill the vial with your water and within a week you will get an email with a report listing everything you need to know for brewing. You will use these figures to create your base water profile in Beersmith.
 
roncox said:
(2) When setting up the water additions/PH for a recipe, BS gives me both a mash addition and a sparge water addition.  If I take a PH reading at 15 minutes in the mash, and BS gives me a correction, do I still use the original additions to the sparge water and include the new numbers?

Yes, that is correct. BS lists "Final Mash pH Adjustments" that apply during the mash, assuming that all the other salts and acids have been added. This is an on-the-fly adjustment based on the Measured Mash pH. The sparge acid is optional because sparge pH is not too important as long as it is below 6.0

--GF
 
You can also use it to get an estimate of acid to add in order to bring your mash pH down to target before you brew.  Enter the 'adjusted mash pH' value as the 'measured mash pH' and BeerSmith will give you an estimate of the amount of acid to reach your target pH.  As I said above, I would use this number at 50% to 60% of the BS recommended addition.  I did get the acidulated malt to give me an accurate value (for my system) by changing the acid content of the acidulated malt from the default of 2% to 3.2%.  It now gives me an addition rate that most closely matches my results when I have used acid malt.
 
Thanks for all the tips.  I may try the lab, once, just to see how close it is to my city water quality report.  But, doesn't the water balance change seasonally?
 
roncox said:
Thanks for all the tips.  I may try the lab, once, just to see how close it is to my city water quality report.  But, doesn't the water balance change seasonally?

It depends on your water source.  Municipal water supplies may change frequently or not at all depending upon what sources they draw upon.  Surface water sources (reservoirs, ponds, lakes, etc.) tend to change seasonally and more frequently.  Ground water sources (wells, underground lakes and rivers) are usually more stable.

This may be why you see a range of results in the test report.  I would first ask the municipal water plant what their sources are, how often they change sources (if more than one) and what circumstances lead to a change.  If you develop a good contact there, they may be willing to tell you what source they are drawing upon if you call them the day before you go to brew.
 
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