new to lager, have questions

Hey all, my batch numbers are entering the fifties and I've figured it's time to learn to lager.
I'm well versed with AG brewing, but have so far limited myself to ales. 
All I know about lager is from books and it's time to get some answers from people.

Is that protein rest I've read about for undermodified malts really necessary for a homebrewer? 
I've read that after you keg from your secondary and start the lagering process, that the temperature should be lowered slowly. 
Does that really matter or can I transfer from a cool basement into a 32 degree cooler without a problem?
That's all I've got for the moment.  Any replies from experienced homelagerers would be appreciated.

-John
 

Maine Homebrewer said:

Is that protein rest I've read about for undermodified malts really necessary for a homebrewer?

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No. If you don't need it for Ale's you don't need it for Lagers either.

I've read that after you keg from your secondary and start the lagering process, that the temperature should be lowered slowly. 
Does that really matter or can I transfer from a cool basement into a 32 degree cooler without a problem?

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I crash mine after the Diactle rest and lagering phase. I have tried it both ways and cant tell any difference.

Cheers
Preston

I did as preston says one my first and it is really good.  I'll do it that way again on the Ofest I brewed Saturday.

Lagering isn't much more involved than working with specific temps and longer conditioing times.

Thanks for your input.  Lagering has intimidated me in the way that A.G. initially intimidated me, that whole mysterious book vs actual trial and error thing.

I've got two in the pipe, one is a week from kegging and the other only started this past weekend.  The basement's been holding at a nice 50 or so, and I can set that gadget I plug the chest freezer into to hold the lagering brew at 32.
At that point I guess I'll store it for a few weeks and see what happens.

If I can come up with something that is even a pale comparison to Pilsner Urquell I will likely never buy beer again.

I've always been one to learn best by watching, then participating, then doing.  But this whole hombrew thing stands that on its head by forcing me to watch, participate, and do, for the first time, all at once.

Stupid hobbies!

You will need more than a few weeks lagering time... I think 2 months is a minimum and 3 is better. I try to hold out for at least 3 months myself.

Cheers
Preston

OK now I'm really confused.  Did I waste my time by slowly raising the temp from 50 to 70 to rest between primary and secondary?  i was so careful to only go up 5 degrees a day, and planned on doing the same on the way down to lagering temps of 35 or so.  I read that this was to not stress the yeast.  I to learn best by watching then doing with others then on my own but no brew buddies at my side to knock me in the head when I'm about to screw things up, so after about 30 batches of my own every batch is still an experiment.  So when is a protein rest needed?

HoosierDanny said:

Did I waste my time by slowly raising the temp from 50 to 70 to rest between primary and secondary?  I read that this was to not stress the yeast. 

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I don't think so.  Yeast don't like drastic temp changes.  Especially at this stage, where you're raising the temp specifically so the yeast can resolve the diacetyl residue.  You want them happy.  After that, I would think the yeast would play a role in the lagering/conditioning phase, and so would appreciate a slow reduction to 35F, but Preston has seen no difference in crashing it, so you'd have to test that for yourself.  (If lagering is primarily about clarity and dropping the yeast, then crashing would seem quicker.) 

HoosierDanny said:

So when is a protein rest needed?

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Protein rests (from 113F to 131F degrees) were once required with the malts generally available, but most agree such a rest is not necessary with today's supplies.  For a specific batch/recipe, you may still choose to do a short protein rest to favor enzymes that create FAN and other yeast nutrients if you felt it would help. 

HoosierDanny said:

OK now I'm really confused.  Did I waste my time by slowly raising the temp from 50 to 70 to rest between primary and secondary?

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Did you waste your time, that's purely subjective and if you don't think so, then no you did not. It's your hobby do what you want!  Bringing the temps slowly down from 70 to 50 would be advisable for the primary fermentation for sure. Keep your yeasties happy during their most busy time is always advisable.

I was so careful to only go up 5 degrees a day, and planned on doing the same on the way down to lagering temps of 35 or so. I read that this was to not stress the yeast. I to learn best by watching then doing with others then on my own but no brew buddies at my side to knock me in the head when I'm about to screw things up, so after about 30 batches of my own every batch is still an experiment.

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First of all I am no expert so take my advise as you will. You will find that there are as many ways to brew as there are people who brew. RDWHAHB! If I understand your intentions correctly, you were doing this for a Diactl rest? For "my" lagers the diactle rest is done a day or so after the Krausen starts to fall, approxamatly 70% through primary fermentation. What I do is just take it out of the fermenting fridge and let it come to room temp for a few days (until fermentation is finished). You want to bring the temp up so the yeast get active again and clean up after themselves.

I also crash cool for the secondary and I add Gelatin to help the yeast fall out of suspension. I keg my beer so you may not want to add gelatin if you bottle condition. At this point the yeast has finished their job and I really don't care if they are happy or not. Cruel and heartless I know ;D Poor Yeasties!

So when is a protein rest needed?

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Un-modified malts and adjuncts like oats, wheat, rye, maze, etc. will benefit from a protein rest. If you do not have any of these un-modified malts/adjuncts you do not need to do a protein rest. As MaltLicker stated, it is not needed with with most of today's malts.
When I have them in a recipe, I usually keep them separated and mash them first. Then add the rest of the grains for the sacrification rest, and I usually do this on the stove while I'm heating up the water.

Thanks guys.  So I'm not as clueless as I thought.

UselessBrewing said:

At this point the yeast has finished their job and I really don't care if they are happy or not. Cruel and heartless I know ;D Poor Yeasties!

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Man, after all they've done for you, you'd toss the yeast under the bus like that.  I see how you roll...typical kegger. 

Yeast always have a home with us bottlers.  Have a heart for the fungus that makes our magic elixir.

HEY!  
I bottle too!
You can't do a good Belgian Double, Heff, or Wit without Bottle conditioning! 

Under the buss? Hmmm, Is the temp better controlled under there? Guess I have more to learn!  ;D

OK, I can be heartless at times. Like this onetime at band camp!

Cheers
Preston