Author Topic: How do I program a 4-step infusion mash?  (Read 11791 times)

climateboy

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How do I program a 4-step infusion mash?
« on: April 09, 2009, 11:01:06 AM »
Hi, BeerSmith.

So, I'd like to follow Northern Brewer's "traditional mash schedule" for its Patersbier kit.

The schedule is as following:

    * 115° F for 15 minutes
    * 143° F for 35 minutes
    * 158° F for 25 minutes
    * 172° F for 5 minutes


I cannot for the life of me figure out how to get this into BeerSmith. I can't do a temperature mash, because I have a cooler mash tun setup (unless I try to mash this in my 10-gallon MegaPot, which I'm not too keen on trying).

When I try to add steps to the infusion mash profiles, the UI will not give me quantities of water (stays at 0.00) or the temperature of the water I'd need to add to raise the temperature to the right level.

Any ideas?


Thanks,

CB 

Offline UselessBrewing

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Re: How do I program a 4-step infusion mash?
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2009, 01:42:19 PM »
What you would need to do is start the infusion with a low water to grain ratio like .60 for the first step then gradually increase the water. I have attached a sample for you to look at. The key is to keep the water ratio Low enough and keep the infusion temp around the boiling point, and end up around 1.5-1.8 water to grain ratio.  You can start out higher, but you would loose a large amount of your sparge water which for me is a big deal.

Cheers
Preston
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climateboy

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Re: How do I program a 4-step infusion mash?
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2009, 10:46:12 PM »
Thanks, Preston. I'll give that a shot.

Although, as with so many answers gathered here, it would be nice if this was easily discernible in the BeerSmith instructions, or simply a feature of the program itself.

Is BeerSmith user-moddable? It should be.

Offline UselessBrewing

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Re: How do I program a 4-step infusion mash?
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2009, 09:45:06 AM »
Is BeerSmith user-moddable? It should be.
I thought that's what I did. ;)

As you use the software, you will become more familiar with how things work just as I have.

Cheers
Preston
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climateboy

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Re: How do I program a 4-step infusion mash?
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2009, 10:19:02 AM »
Thanks, Preston!

I meant permanent mods, calculators, and so forth that Beersmith could host, and people could download and add on if they desired.

Offline SkyFlyer

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Re: How do I program a 4-step infusion mash?
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2009, 08:43:24 PM »
Preston, I want to ask a little bit the 4-step mash sample that you supplied.
I found a recipe that had a 3 step mash profile (Bastard Son Wheat with Oberon Clone Mash in BeerSmith recipes).
That profile told me the temps for the step and for how longs.
I want to tweak the gallons a bit based on what you said earlier in this post (trying to keep the ratio low and temp close to boiling).
Is the trick to doing this by going to each step in the profile, and keep changing the ratio until you see that the temp is close to a boil?
I end up with very small amounts of water, like right around 0.5 gal for each step.
Is that water amount too low?
The original 3 step profile had water amounts over 2gals, 1gal, and 2gals for the 3 steps.

My sample shows water amounts that are considerably lower.
Are there disadvantages or advantages of going as low as you can go on water amounts and keep the temp to close to boil.

Step        Description                                Step Temp      Step Time   
Mash In   Add 0.50 gal of water at 208.3 F   140.0 F           30 min
Step       Add 0.40 gal of water at 201.0 F   158.0 F            30 min
Mash Out Add 0.70 gal of water at 210.9 F   176.0 F            10 min

Am I going the right direction here?
Also, do you make the mash profile for a set or standard amount of grain weight, like 10 pounds?
And if I could ask one more question?
What are the advantages of doing a 3 step vs. a fairly standard 2 step infusion with batch sparge?
I don't know where I would find out about that.

Sorry about the questions.
Answer what you can.
And thanks ...
Thanks, Bob

Mij

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Re: How do I program a 4-step infusion mash?
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2009, 06:50:43 AM »
Is the trick to doing this by going to each step in the profile, and keep changing the ratio until you see that the temp is close to a boil?
Yep, the nice thing about water at 212*F is that it's boiling :)  You don't need to watch and measure the temp and watch and measure the temp and ...

I end up with very small amounts of water, like right around 0.5 gal for each step.  Is that water amount too low?
Sounds like a relative concern.  The amount of water that you use to mash has an impact upon the fermentability of the wort.  See Page 27 of the link http://www.keystonehomebrew.com/bjcpclass/Wort%20Production%20and%20Biochem.pdf - this chart was developed by George Fix, Principles of Brewing Science, page 98.  So, yep - the amount of water does make a difference; the amount of water you "should" use is entirely up to YOU :)  (Ok, I know that's not too helpful - you probably want a number, right) - How about trying to obtain the "thinnest" mash possible with your brewing gear as a start - work backwards and see what your mash tun can handle...

Also, do you make the mash profile for a set or standard amount of grain weight, like 10 pounds?
The infusion profile depends upon the amount of grain.  Each weight change to the grain bill will also affect the amount and/or temperature of the infusion water.  You could create a 10lb profile and make sure that each of your recipes is ALWAYS 10lbs - but that's probably not gonna happen, right ;)

What are the advantages of doing a 3 step vs. a fairly standard 2 step infusion with batch sparge?
So far, we haven't discussed sparging methods.  /*Start Flame War*/Fly, batch, no-sparge /*End Flame War*/ - Pick one, stick with it and you'll find your equipment's efficiency - just try and pick the process that you can repeat each time you brew   Knowing your system's efficiency will help you "tune" your recipe formulations.

Hey, good luck with all this and remember, the journey is part of the fun...

Offline UselessBrewing

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Re: How do I program a 4-step infusion mash?
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2009, 08:34:11 AM »
+1 Mij
Without reiterating what Mij stated I will try to simplify it a little
Is the trick to doing this by going to each step in the profile, and keep changing the ratio until you see that the temp is close to a boil?
I end up with very small amounts of water, like right around 0.5 gal for each step.
Is that water amount too low?
That does sound low! 1.6 gallons on 10# is not near enough water. It is my understanding of the software that the 10# is a base the software uses as a reference. If you modified the 4 step I posted above then it will not work. Because that mash profile was customized for 4 steps and the water ratios were adjusted for the total water ratio. If you remove a step and don't adjust all the water ratio settings you will end up with to little water in the grist. It sounds like what you want to do is a a standard Double infusion, Full Body with a mash out step. I believe it is a standard mash profile in BeerSmith. However I may have modified and forgot to rename, so I'm not sure if it is standard.

Quote
What are the advantages of doing a 3 step vs. a fairly standard 2 step infusion with batch sparge?
Here is my understanding:

Single Infusion: A single infusion of water for Saccrification. Used for "fully modified" malts. Very rarely will you find any malts that are not fully modified.

Double Infusion: A two stage infusion of water. The first step is typically a protein rest of 130F before the Saccrification rest. The Protein rest is used for under modified malts and adjuncts like Rye, Wheat, and oats. If all your malts are fully modified there is no need for a Double Infusion Mash.

Single Infusion/Mash out: Same as a Single Infusion with a Mash out step. The Mash Out is there to deactivate the Enzymes in the grist. (Some consider this a two step infusion, which I can see.)

Double Infusion/Mash out: same as a Double infusion with a Mash out step. (Some consider this a 3 step infusion, which I can also see.)

There are lots of books out there that can explain these in great detail.

In your example, here is what stands out to me (Ignoring the volumes of water)
Step                Step Temp      Step Time   
Mash In            140.0 F           30 min    (I see this as a Protein Rest)
Step                158.0 F            30 min   (I see this as the Saccrification Rest)
Mash Out Add  176.0 F            10 min    (of course this is the Mash Out)
*********************
So to me this is a Double Infusion with a Mash out.

Hope this helps

Cheers
Preston



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Offline SkyFlyer

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Re: How do I program a 4-step infusion mash?
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2009, 07:20:05 PM »
Thanks, Guys for the input.
I'm starting to get the drift.
I think I'll leave it alone for awhile.
There is a lot of reading I can do first.
I wish there were instructions or a tutorial on creating a profile from scratch.
I can see that I don't need to do that now.
And you are right, there are enough samples in the profile list.
As Preston suggested, the Double Infusion (light, med, full body) with Mash Out would do what I was trying to set up.
The reason I was thinking about the extra step is this.
I want to do a Wheat beer with the wheat at about 40% of the grain bill.
Am I correct in thinking that Wheat is not a modified grain?
So, having the extra step would be beneficial for a Wheat beer?
Up until now I have been using the Single Infusion Light or Medium body with a batch sparge.

There are a million Wheat or Hefe-Wiezen recipes out there.
The problem is trying pick one!
Anyone have a favorite?
I'll find one!
Thanks again ...
Thanks, Bob

Offline UselessBrewing

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Re: How do I program a 4-step infusion mash?
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2009, 08:25:06 AM »
Adding a protien rest to a wheat beer would be benificial.
Here is my "Wife's Wit    VII" Recipe. This one is a crowd favorite, and is a great entry beer for those new to trying something other than BMC. The revision history is in the notes  and it literally is SWMBO's Wit. I have to ask permission to have one... I just made another batch this last weekend. I upped the Hops to 1oz instead of .75 oz, I believe that was the only change. It may be to hoppy for her so I may end up making more very soon...

Cheers
Preston
« Last Edit: July 24, 2009, 08:26:38 AM by UselessBrewing »
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Offline SkyFlyer

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Re: How do I program a 4-step infusion mash?
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2009, 01:16:08 PM »
Thanks Preston.
The Wit recipe sounds good.  I'm trying it.
A couple of questions ...
Is the '2 items' of orange = to 2oz. of orange zest, or the zest of 2 oranges?
Maybe there is not a difference.  I don't know.
Also ...
I have never gone more than 70 minutes in my mash.
You have the saccrification step at 60 for a total of 100min.
Just making sure that is supposed to be 60.  I'm sure it is.
Thanks ...
Thanks, Bob

Offline UselessBrewing

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Re: How do I program a 4-step infusion mash?
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2009, 09:27:23 AM »
Hi SkyFlyer
The 2 items = the zest from 2 items like 2 oranges etc.
You are correct, the total mash time is 100 min long.

Cheers
Preston
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Offline SkyFlyer

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Re: How do I program a 4-step infusion mash?
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2009, 09:57:08 AM »
Thanks.
We are all ready.
My brew store did not have Torrified Wheat, so I am going with just plain Wheat Malt.
I have not worked with many grains, so I am not sure.
Torrified Wheat is sort of popped, I understand for better conversion.
I guess I could have used flaked wheat, but too late now.
It is malted wheat and it will be good.
Thanks, Bob

Offline SkyFlyer

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Re: How do I program a 4-step infusion mash?
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2009, 12:44:48 PM »
Preston, sorry for all the questions, but I have them.
For your Wit recipe, you have zest from 2 oranges and 2 Lemons.
This for a 5 gal batch.
I am doubling it for a 10 gal batch.
Does zest from 4 oranges and 4 lemons seem a bit much?
Or is that reasonable?  I haven't done oranges and/or lemons yet.
Maybe the fruit doesn't double?
Thanks ...
Thanks, Bob

Offline UselessBrewing

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Re: How do I program a 4-step infusion mash?
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2009, 02:23:38 PM »
Yes double it. You may want to throw in the zest from 2 grapefruits. That should help with the citrus flavor also.
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