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As Mash Temp Falls

Wildrover

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What happens exactly as it relates to the character of the beer?  More specifically, I know that higher mash temps equals a fuller bodied beer with less fermentables than a lower mash temp that produces a wort high in fermentables but a lighter bodied beer.  But I'm wondering is what happens if you start at say 158 and then simply let the mash temp fall through to the 150 range?  Would you get the best of both worlds?  Would you end up with a full bodied and still highly fermentable beer?  My guess is probably not.  

Would you end up with a highly fermentable lighter bodied beer as the the temp falls the enzyme activity starts to favor the production of a light bodied more fermentable beer, thus the temperature drop basically cancels out the activity that occurred initially at the higher temp which in effect means you wasted your time starting the mash out at the higher temp?  

or

Does the mash temp at the higher temp convert everything and the temp drop doesn't mean anything because by the time the temp drops the conversion is already complete (assuming for the examples sake that the time at each temp is adequate for complete conversion) and the higher temp basically denatures the enzymes that would have done the work at the lower temps so when the mash temp gets to the lower temps there aren't any enzymes left to do produce what a lower mash temp would have produced had you started there in the first place?

Finally, on a related note, why do step mashes always go up in temp and not down?  Also, I've seen step mashes that suggest a rest at the 148-152 region and then another rest at the 158 region.  Seems like this rest is trying to have a highly fermentable full bodied wort?  I always thought the mash was a compromise, full bodied less fermentable or vice versa, can you really have a full bodied highly fermentable wort like that?  Seems like the enzymes would take the dextrines and cleave them to the point of fermentablitiy at the 148-152 range so when you rested at the 158 range all the starches are already converted to the smaller fermentable sugars so there shouldn't be any starches left to convert into the larger dextrins that produce a full bodied beer?

What am I missing?  

 
Wildrover said:
What happens exactly as it relates to the character of the beer?  More specifically, I know that higher mash temps equals a fuller bodied with less fermentables than a lower mash temp that produces a higher fermentables lighter bodied beer.  But I'm wondering is what happens if you start at say 158 and then simply let the mash temp fall through to the 150 range?  Would you get the best of both worlds?  Would you end up with a full bodied and still highly fermentable beer?  My guess is probably not. 
That would be too easy.  Higher temps denature enzymes, generally the ones active at lower temps first.  A 158F mash favors the alpha enzymes and a fuller body.  At this temp the beta enzymes are both working and becoming denatured.  Depending on the time at temp how much denaturing will vary.  If a very short time (you added too hot of water and you countered it by adding ice/cold water to drop temp then not much change will have occured and the beta amalyse will be the dominate enzyme determining the character of your beer (drier)

Wildrover said:
Would you end up with a highly fermentable lighter bodied beer as the the temp falls the enzyme activity starts to favor the production of a light bodied more fermentable beer, thus the temperature drop basically cancels out the activity that occurred initially at the higher temp which in effect means you wasted your time starting the mash out at the higher temp? 
It depends on time at temp, most commonly the beer will have the impact of the higher mash and the fuller body.


Wildrover said:
Does the mash temp at the higher temp convert everything and the temp drop doesn't mean anything because by the time the temp drops the conversion is already complete and the higher temp basically denatures the enzymes that would have done the work at the lower temps so when the mash temp gets to the lower temps there aren't any enzymes left to do produce what a lower mash temp would have produced had you started at the lower temp?
This is not a question of conversion (converting starch to sugar) but rather of the ratio of long-chain (non-fermentable) sugars (higher mash temps) to short-chain/simple sugars (favored by lower mash temps).  Conversion occurs in both cases.

Wildrover said:
Finally, on a related note, why do step mashes always go up in temp and not down?  Also, I've seen step mashes that suggest a rest at the 148-152 region and then another rest at the 158 region.  Seems like this rest is trying to have a highly fermentable full bodied wort?  I always though the mash was a compromise, full bodied less fermentable or vice versa, can you really have a full bodied highly fermentable wort like that?  Seems like the enzymes would take the dextrines and cleave them to the point of fermentablitiy at the 148-152 range so when you rested at the 158 range all the starches are already converted to the smaller fermentable sugars so there shouldn't be any starches left to convert into the larger dextrins that produce a full bodied beer?

What am I missing? 
The process doesn't occur instantly, it takes time.  I frequently achieve a full bodied beer with a highly fermentable wort.  This is typical of my Barleywines.  I execute a very long low temp mash on a high gravity beer, typically seeing attenuation in the 90-95% range and FG around 1.030+.

Fred
 
Fred,

Thanks for the reply.  So if I understand it right.  Mashing at higher temps generally denatures the enzymes that could have done something at lower rest temps.  For example, if I do a protein rest first, I'm taking away the possibility of an acid rest as the enzymes that would have worked in the acid rest region are denatured at the protein rest range.  Same could be said for the sach rest, if I go there first, the protein rest and acid rest enzymes are denatures and thus, I'm not going to get the benefits of those rests (for the purpose of this example lets say the hypothetical is all unmalted grain) even if I let the temp fall to the range of those rests.  This would also answer the question as to why we step up and not down in our rests if I understand it correctly? 

Sound right?

Thanks

WR
 
The explanation is simplified, but that is the way it works

Fred
 
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