soft water and hop rate

I read in Dave Miller's Homebrewer's Guide that to make a Chech Pilsner you should use colder fermentation temps and soft water as opposed to a German Pilsner which uses warmer temps and harder water.  To get the hop rate of a Chech you have to use soft water!? 
I wonder if my ultra soft water here at Lake Tahoe is making my beer hoppier than the style requires?  Basically, the snow melts, runs into the lake and into my sink/beer.
Has anyone taste tested soft vs. hard water for hop rate? 
I know, I'm simplifying "hard water".
I talked to the water entineer here and asked for a water profile.  He gave me a funny look and fumbled around for some numbers.  Basically, they are so low the numbers are insignificant.  I'm brewing with H2O.  :-\

Plzen, Czech Republic has very low mineral water, and as one travels north thru Germany the mineral content increases to Dortmunder's very minerally profile.  The low-minerals leads to a softer maltier pilsener versus the harder German pilsner styles. 

So, if you have a very low mineral water profile like Plzen, then you may be able to make a good Czech Pils. 

MaltLicker said:

Plzen, Czech Republic has very low mineral water, and as one travels north thru Germany the mineral content increases to Dortmunder's very minerally profile.  The low-minerals leads to a softer maltier pilsener versus the harder German pilsner styles. 

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More credence to the thesis that no matter where you are you can probably brew good beer with whatever comes out of the ground.

With of course the exception of some really awful sulfur laden water I've had in FL.

So I doubled a batch of Irish Red but in a moment of dementia did not double the hops.  I may not be in as bad shape as I thought, with the super soft water here.  Does that sound right?

Unfortunately, that is doubtful.  If the recipe had 30 IBU and 50 OG, then the BU:GU ratio would be 0.60.  Diluting the same oz. of hops in double the liquid might result in approx. 15 or 18 IBU, making the BU:GU ratio in the double batch approx. 0.30.  The water chemistry being very low mineral would only lessen the hops impact, given the lack of sulfates to bring the hops forward. 

ARG!  I hope it's not so bad that I can't even give it away.  I made 10 gallons.  double arg.

So, forgeting Dave Miller, what's the impact of soft water on a Czech Pilsner?  Maybe I'm over simplifing soft water to a fault. 

Chas at Tahoe said:

ARG!  I hope it's not so bad that I can't even give it away.  I made 10 gallons.  double arg.

So, forgeting Dave Miller, what's the impact of soft water on a Czech Pilsner?  Maybe I'm over simplifing soft water to a fault. 

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I imagine your beer will just be maltier than planned. 

Soft water is the native water for a Czech pils, but back in 1842 when they first brewed it, they had to do an acid rest and a decoction or two to pull more acidity out of those poorly modified grains IOT make a decent brew. 

Today, with much better malted grains and knowledge of water chemistry, Pilsener Urquell brewers may well use mineral additions to aid in fermentation (or whatever) b/c they can. 

If you want to go there, Palmer has a great chapter on water chemistry. 
http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15.html

Thanks for the tip.
WoW.  That's a lot to absorb.  Since I'm still an extract brewer is it safe to asume that managing pH is approximately the same in the boil as in the mash?

Since my water is practically H2O and Irish Red is fast becoming my favorite beer I think I need to look into managing my water.  Although, my previous Irish Red was wonderful the charts in 15.3 seem to indicate I need add something.  The charts are almost impossible to read on the web.  I'm sure there's a book...

I wonder where Irish Red was created and what the water profile is for that region...

You'd find a Dublin and Edinburgh profile in BSmith.  That's a start. 

Palmer focuses on managing minerals for the mash, so you might find other resources online that include all the water.  But the primary lesson I took away from learning about water is that it is not so much "water chemistry" as it is "mineral deficiency" for brewing purposes. 

My water is ultra-low-mineral also, so I have to add everything to reach the recommended minimums for brewing, and then shape the chloride:sulfate to style. 

Kilkenny is just South and West of Dublin but I found a craft brew website in Ireland with three different water profiles for Dublin.  I'd like to hope that Kilkenny is like Dublin but it looks like Dublin isn't like Dublin.  :-\
I figured how to get Palmer's chart to print and ran some lines for my water and it seems to be pretty close for an Irish Red.  The pH is a hard one to figure on his chart though.  I understood that the best range was 5.2 to 5.6 but that range is off the color chart.  Unless this is a Base Mash Malt chart so if I start with water in this range the added adjuncts will lower the pH to the range quoted above. 

If that's true then I'm back to my original question, 'Is this chart usable for extract brewing?"

How do you figure your recommended minimums?

I know sulfates will bring the hops to the front but what does cloride do?

BTW:  I really appreciate your taking the time to educate a neophite.

Palmer offers his spreadsheet on his site (in that chapter), and this site uses Palmer's model, but has cleaned it up quite a bit.  http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/

Again, you're not mashing, so your needs are different.  But you still need sufficient calcium and magnesium for yeast health.  

Chloride lends a smoothness and roundness to the beer, roughly opposite the effect of sulfates.   For a Irish Red, you'd want a balanced or slightly malty C:S ratio.  

I gotta ramp up to all grain.  I'm almost there.  I only need a 10gal cooler and some hardware to filter the grist.

Thanks for the input, much appreciated.

Opened the first bottle of my Irish Red last night. 

Maltlicker is right. It was just a little malty but everyone at the party liked it and said I should make that mistake next time too. 

MaltLicker said:

Unfortunately, that is doubtful.  If the recipe had 30 IBU and 50 OG, then the BU:GU ratio would be 0.60.  Diluting the same oz. of hops in double the liquid might result in approx. 15 or 18 IBU, making the BU:GU ratio in the double batch approx. 0.30.  The water chemistry being very low mineral would only lessen the hops impact, given the lack of sulfates to bring the hops forward. 

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I don't know if I agree with that, you don't know his chloride to sulfate ratio... or his pH balance, RA which makes a huge difference.