Batch Sparge Method(S)

[Wildrover]

This has been a pretty helpful thread, I'm of the opinion now that my beer issues are more water and not process orientated.

the more I think about it the gravity staying consistent for each running also makes sense but, I'm still going to take readings next brew day just to see! I'd be willing to be the gravity goes down a little and I'd be willing to bet its related to the amount of sparge water you use each time.  I know I often will have about an inch of water above the grain bed before I start my second and third runnings.  This isn't that different, at least at the very beginning, from fly sparging.  I'd be willing to bet I'll see a slight drop in gravity from the beginning to the end and if I take two middle runnings the gravity will be consistent.

[Pirate Point Brewer]

Wildrover,

Just yesterday, I was reading a book that was discussing the development of Vienna Lager. The brew master that began this was Anton Dreher in 1856 if I remember right. He was the first one to document a process like yours. He said he boiled the first running until it precipitated white flakes, then he ran it back thru the grains to filter.  THATS NEAT!  What I think he did, was boil the first running until he achieved Hot Break, then he accomplished Mash Out and filtered out 90% of the hot break mess with the grain bed!! 

Boy Am I Going T Try This!

Preston 

[Pirate Point Brewer]

Wildrover,

I got so excited reading about your Mash Out, I forgot to answer the earlier discussion. 

To track and record data during the brew, I have a stock form of the data I collect. I copy it into the recipe notes. It is then also on the brewsheet.  I don’t have a laptop so I just use a pen to record the data on the brewsheet and later after it was  packaged, I type it into the recipe notes. It is then saved for future ref.
Note Form:

Strike = ___*F, Mash Start = ___*F,  Mash End = ___*F, Corrected Decoct Volume = ___ qt, Mash Out = ___*F,
1st Running Volume = _.__ gal, Absorption = _.__ gal, S.G. = 1.___, Sparge Temp = ___*F, 2nd Running = _.__ gal, S.G. = 1.___,
3rd Running = _.__ gal, S.G. = 1.___, Pre-Boil Gravity = 1.___, Boiled Wort Gravity (O.G.) = 1.___, Primary = PRI- _
Yeast History = __, __, __, __, __, __, __, __, __, __, _ Use, Pitch Date = __/__/__, Pitch Temp = __*F, Pitch Time = __:__,
Date Air Lock lift = __/__/__, Time Air Lock Lift = __:__, Full Activity Date = __/__/__, Full Activity Time = __:__, Secondary = SEC - _, Rack Date = __/__/__, Gravity into Secondary = 1.0__, Secondary Temp = __*F, Bottle/Keg Date = __/__/__, Final Gravity = 1.0__, Attenuation % = __.__%

So to answer your question about the SG of the different runnings, I added that to the form. The brew isn’t out of the Secondary yet so I haven’t typed the data back into the recipe notes but here is the data you were curious about:

Strike       13 qts or 3.25 gal
1st running    2.00 gal, so 10lbs of grain absorbed 1.25 gal.  SG = 1.089
2nd running   2.6 gal, SG = 1.038
3rd running   2.6 gal, SG = 1.012

Combined Pre boil was 7.2 gal @ SG 1.043.  BeerSmith’s target was 1.042.

So you are correct, each running is a lower SG. I take the sample mid stream but I do not think it would be very different at the start or end as the sugar should be in solution.

What do you think? 
Preston

[Wildrover]

Preston,

the only draw back I can  see to bringing some of my mash liquor up to boiling and then adding it back to bring the grist up to mash out temp is  that you may have some carmelization in the pot leading to darker colors and a maltier profile BUT I also think that is a potential issue and the odds are low, as soon as it starts to boil or get near boiling (I use BS to determine how much liquor and what temp I need to get the grist up to mash out temp) I add it back in.  I usually only do around 1.5-2 gallons though, not all of it so I doubt I'm leaving all the hot break back in the mash tun.  That is a good idea though

as far as the runnings go, in theory the gravity for each individual running should be the same regardless of when you take the reading, it shouldn't matter if you take your reading at the beginning of the first running or at the end, the gravity should be the same.  However, it will be lower for each additional running since you are adding liquid to the grist which has already been run at least once which has already removed a lot of the sugar.  Having said that, my guess is that the gravity does change slightly from the beginning to the end of each running.  Especially if you are sparging with enough water to produce a volume of water that sits above the grain bed.  I just don't' see the same amount of sugar being dissolved in that portion of the sparge volume as the rest of the liquid that is saturating the grains.  I could be wrong though and the difference is probably negligible, if there is one at all.   

[Pirate Point Brewer]

Wildrover,

Well said on all points!! 

We will try the Mash Out concept next brew season. Well use the decoct volume given by BS to determine what amount to boil to achieve MO temp.  We will boil it to Hot Break, then add it back. We will loose some to evaporation. We'll just have to keep very careful notes on volume. Then we can compensate next batch.

We're sure you are correct that we won't get all of the Hot Break, but since the first running is the richest (highest SG), perhaps we'll get 60% or 70% of it ??  Should be interesting!

Our data shows that you are right on regarding the SG of each running. Each running is a lower SG than the previous. The Sparge batches we add are always more than 1" above the grain bed.

Interesting Stuff - Keep Thinking - Oh yeah then type what you think for the rest of us!

Preston

[CR]

When I am not being dyslexic I try to keep the  water on the mash tun to a minimum.
That way I can run more than one sparge.

[Pirate Point Brewer]

CR,

We have read that multiple "rinsings" are more thorough than a single rinse. Which plays out true when you are rinsing the bottles or carboys you just washed. It makes sense that the same principal would apply to batch sparging or "Rinsing the sugar out of the grains".

To us this gets down to the whole "Volume" equation. For new all grain brewers we'll restate the basic premises.

To achieve the desired Batch Volume, we need to determine a fixed amount of water for our entire process less the basic losses from Absorption, Evaporation, Cooling Shrinkage, and other losses that are dependant on our brewing system setup, like liquid trapped in the MLT, chiller, hopback etc and the amount you leave in the boiler to keep hot break, hops etc out of the fermentor. Once we know our system and can consistently produce that volume, each of us develops a process by which we apply that volume to the malted grains to make wort at the desired S.G. So we have to decide how much to use, and how to use it for the Mash. Then how much to use, and how to apply to the Sparge.

We said all that as much to keep our own head straight as anyone else. OK, we are familiar with a few basic concepts on how to apply the volume of water left after the mash for batch sparging. The first is that the temperature of the water should be as high as possible staying below 170*F. This is to keep the grist as fluid as possible allowing the sugars to dissolve into the water but not extract tannins from the husk. Usually the target is 168*F. This seems to be a common thread for all sparging schemes.

Now comes the part where we are unsure as conflicting thoughts that can be applied. The first is what I think CR implied. If I understand his thought correctly, many smaller rinses better than a single rinse. Since the total volume of sparge water is fixed, he keeps his sparge batches smaller so he can make "More Rinses". This makes sense as in getting soap out of bottles and carboys, we have always found at least three rinses were needed. A conflicting thought is that the sugar will dissolve more easily and more quickly in a larger batch of water than a small one. Based on saturation, a fixed volume of water can only hold a fixed amount of sugar, this amount is proportional to temperature. The higher the temperature, the more sugar per volume of water. Another conflicting thought is that sugar will be dissolved most efficiently the more fluid the grain bed is by both temperature and volume. The sugar is trapped in the grains or at leased much more difficult to dissolve when the grain bed remains dense and compact. These two conflicting thoughts imply that a single large volume of water will have the best chance to collect the maximum sugar by both saturation and accessability.

We don't know if we are correct, but we have resolved to always make make more than one batch sparge running and to maximise the volume of each.  Making our typical house brews with 10 lbs of grain in a 5 gal Igloo MLT, We make two equal sized runnings with sufficient volume to "Float" the grains. We could make our preferred 3 rinsings, but are afraid that the smaller volumes would be more inefficient. Since we were making good beer to us, we haven't tried the three smaller batches. We should, we just haven't.

What have you guys found?

[ECarroll]

well i can only say  how we do it over here in Germany. We do it at once, that means we start our lautering and wait till the water is just above the grains then when it is going down beyond the grain level then we add more water about 1-2 liters, then wait and do it again till my brew pot is full and my pre boil has reached its desired Plato or SG. We always do constant lautering

[Wildrover]

Hey guys, I found this post on another board that explains why more rounds of less volume will equal greater efficiency.  It's geeky and over my head but I think its intuitive none the less.  If you have two gallons to clean the same dirty wall will you get it more clean by throwing all two gallons at it at once or will you get it more clean by throwing one gallon at it and then the second? 

Hey BierMuuncher, have you done any Chromatography? Geek Alert!! He is correct. Two washes at 50% is better than one at 100%. It is all about equilbrium. With chromatograhy (the separation of compounds in a solution) you can run a standard column (like fly sparging) where your sample is applied (mash is done) and the solvent (water) is run through the column (grain bed). The compounds (sugar) will in exist in an equilbrium between being in the solvent (sparge) and being "attached" to the column (mostly husks by now). As the solvent is flowing it will carry off the compounds (sugar), and if you've got a good column (grain bed) the compounds will elute (wash off) in a bell shaped curve pattern. On a given spot on the column, as the solvent (water) moves past some sugar get carried away, and then new water comes by with less sugar dissolved in it so more sugar dissolves to attempt to re-establish equilibrium. And so on until all of the compounds are gone. Of course the solvent won't dissolve everything (tannins) so you have to wash the column with a different solvent before you use it again - or just throw it out (dump grains)

Now, one can also do chromotography in what is referered to as a batch process (imagine that). In this case your sample is applied to the column and thoroughly mixed so the compounds bind to the column (sound familiar?) After equilibrium has been established (pretty quick for most things) all of the liquid is drained off at once. Depending on the application, the material you want will be removed with the initial run off (wort) or it will be retained on the column (tannins). In most cases in the lab for batch processing you want the material to be retained. You do a wash step to get rid of any remaining contaiminants (the rest of your sugars) and then change your solvent to get the bound material to dissolve and elute (which brewers don't want to happen). This is a potential problem with pH and particularly fly sparging. If the pH gets to high the tannins bound to the husk (the "column") will dissolve into the water. As long as the pH is low enough, the equilibrium strongly favors the tannins staying bound to the husks.

[MaltLicker]

Geeky, but fairly clear.  Thanks for sharing.  Makes it simpler to understand why fly has an EE% edge over batch, with the continuous rinsing action of the water, and the constant fluid state, compared to batch. 

Also helps illustrate that you want your last bit of sparge water to be rinsing grains and topping off the boil volume, versus still sitting in the grain bed somewhere. 

[SOGOAK]

Depends on the style- generally speaking with infusion mash and batch lautering, I do about 2.5 runnings with the last mostly going to starter wort.  This puts me over 75% and that is good.  Steps are hard, but that isn't made either with fly sparging unless you can raise your mt temp easily.  Otherwise it is "careful luck"

[Brew Daddy 723]

We measure the 3rd running at mid stream, only to compare it to fly sparge targets. Fly sparge targets are to stop at 1.010.  Our 3rd runnings are typically 1.015 to 1.014.

How do you measure it? My hydrometer only gives temp adjustments up to 90 degrees I think. How do you convert the temp from 150-170 down to the 65-70 degree range or do you just chill it and wait?