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Saison: fruity vs. spicy

jibby

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I'm trying to create/find a recipe for a more fruity, sweet Saison, but most people seem to want to create a Dupont clone.

From the many I have tried, I have come to the opinion that there really are 2 distinguishable types of Saisons:

1. spicy hops, peppery, super dry, fruitiness is mainly citrusy                  ///Saison Dupont, Urthel Saisonnière
2. dark fruits (berries), soft, tart, sweet, mild hops but often musky, often medium-bodied    ///Fantôme, Vapeur (eg. Pipaix), L'Amalthée

I'm sure there's lots of overlap, but am I the only one to notice this difference?

So my question is: what are the differences in brewing these 2 styles. Really, I'm trying to create something like Fantome, but it doesn't have to be a clone, just have similar fruity/musky characteristics. The following are guesses to where the differences may lie:

I would guess that yeast is the biggest factor:
  spicy:  WLP565 Belgian Saison I Yeast, Wyeast 3711 French Saison,
  fruity:  WLP566 Belgian Saison II Yeast, WLP568 Belgian Style Saison Blend, WLP072 French Ale,  Wyeast 3463 Forbidden Fruit

Malt:
  spicy: low FG, mostly Pilsner Malt
  fruity: higher FG, some (~10?) wheat to add body, some Munich to add maltiness

Traditionalists often recommend attaining super low FG for a very dry, spicy beer. That's not what I'm going for. I'd like some fruity sweetness in mine. Does anybody know what the FG is in Fantome beers?

Also, the fruity ones might have other spices, fruit juices, and other additions.

It makes no difference to me what the "traditional" Saison was like. I just want a beer that I enjoy - which means more fruit, less hop sharpness/pepperiness. What do you guys think? Any recipes or suggestions?



My working recipe  is currently:

Pilsner, Belgian 10.5# 80% base
Wheat 0.75# 6% >body (high protein), mouthfeel, head retention
Munich 0.75# 6% adds color, maltiness, flavor
Cane Sugar 1# 7% <body, >ABV
(?)Caramel Munich 60L 2oz    >body (unfermentables); caramel, roasted flavors

1.70 oz. Hallertauer Tradition Pellet 6.00 39.8 60 min.
0.75 oz. Hallertauer Tradition Pellet 6.00 0.0 0 min.

1.00 Oz Irish Moss Fining 15 Min.(boil)

yeast: haven't decided yet, one of the ones listed above?

sugar added last 20 minutes of boil
fermentation: 3 weeks primary, starting at 68F, then gradually elevating to ~80F (as per Jamil)
maturation: 2 weeks
carbonation: 3-3.5vol
mashed at 146F for 90m (lower temp, more time than usual)
OG: 1.063
FG: 1.008


 
The biggest factors in the flavor IMO are yeast and ferment temp. I have been usig WLP568. It has a nice fruity (Juicy Fruit gum) aroma and flavor and just a touch of pepper in the finish. Here is where I got my recipe originally. I have made a couple small changes:
http://www.picobrewery.com/recipes/saison.html

Recipe for 20 gallons:
30.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain
10.00 lb Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain
6.00 lb Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain
1.00 lb Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM)
Mash @ 149 for 60-90 minutes

60 min 4.00 oz Northern Brewer [7.90 %] (60 min) Hops
10 min 2.00 oz Sterling [8.70 %] (10 min) Hops
5 min 2.00 oz Sterling [8.70 %] (5 min) Hops
5 min 0.50 oz Orange Peel, Sweet (Boil 5.0 min) Misc

Belgian Style Saison Blend (White Labs #WLP568)

Ferment at 75-80 degrees

OG1.068
FG 1.014
 
My two cents would concern mash temp, yeast, and gravity.

To get a fruity sweet style Saison (sounds more like a biere de garde) I would mash between 154-158 for the sac rest.
Go for an OG in the 1.052-54 range in lieu of the higher gravities many contribute to the style.
Use the Wyeast 3711 (a more versatile strain) and ferment at the upper end of the range 75-77ish.

Possibly add like a carabelge or caraamber to the mash (5% or so) to get some more unfermentables.

The 3711 will produce more orange-citrus than lemon-citrus especially at these temperatures...or so I've found.

The lower alcohol will reduce the spicy pheonols and pepper that is contributed by higher alcohol brews.

For what it's worth...I hope it helps.

T-
 
I crush fresh pepper and add it to a small bottle of vodka. I let this set around and dissolve to use in Bloody Mary's as an adjunct. On a whim I added some to my Saison that I entered in a local contest. I placed 4th because I over carbonated (again). The judges liked the taste, just not on there shirts!
 
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