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Too much water during sparge giving a low OG?

JLento

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Hello,

I have been using BeerSmith to calculate out my recipes and have been trying a certain one for 3 runs now.  Every time I brew this beer the pre-boil OG is 1.059 when it should be 1.069 and after a boil it goes down to 1.056. In my head it seems that the OG should go up after a boil because you have less water per the amount of water but it never works out for me.

This recipe does call for a lot of grain, 16.50 lbs total.  We mash with 5 gallons of water but then BeerSmith tells me I need to sparge with 10.29 gallons of water.  Sparging with 10.29 gallons of water ultimately yields about 10 gallons of water in the kettle since the mash absorbed most of the other 5 gallons.  In a 90 minute boil it isn't possible for me to boil down 5-6 gallons of water which is why I have a low OG (I think).  The thing that really confuses me is how on earth would I be in a position to add water to get a 6.47 gallon boil if I mashed with 5 gal and then sparged with 10 gallon?

I am sure this is an amateur mistake but if someone could point me in the right direction I would appreciate it.

Thanks,

John
 
Post your recipe file for help with the equipment settings. 

If you are measuring 1.059 pre-boil and then getting 1.056 post boil, without adding any add'l water, then one of those numbers is likely incorrect. 

Are you stirring the boil pot before sampling?  If hydro sample, are you adjusting for temp, or cooling the samples to the same temp to get accurate readings?

If you're consistently getting 1.059 with 16.50 pounds of grain, then that's a good guess for your EE%.  If you're telling BSmith your EE% is higher, and it's guessing you'll get 1.069, then it's time to change your estimate.  If you really want 1.059, then it's just a math change, if you want 1.069, you'll need more grain b/c your EE% is lower than you think.
 
I may be measuring incorrectly.  A lot of times I adjust for temperature which may throw off my OG.

I have tried to scale the recipe and use more grain but that did not seem to help me all that much.  I am still inconsistent in the process so I could have just messed something up.  I really thing it has to do with the amount of sparge water used and collected. 

I have attached my recipe file.  Thank you for your help.
 

Attachments

  • ipa.bsm
    17.2 KB · Views: 235
How are you measuring the gravity.  Best way it to cool the wort to 60f.  I keep a 1 qt pot in the freezer and dump my sample wort into it and swirl around and back in the freezer for a bit, swirl, repear until it is at the desired temp.  Then I measure.  Many brewers guess at the temperature of the wort and make incorrect adjustments.  better get close to the optimal temp. If it is snowy cold where you are, it is even easier. Cover the sample and cover in snow  ;D (note:  I encourage tasting these samples.  It gives you a good idea the base flavors.  I think some folks mix it with scotch too.).

If you have a bunch of wort left in the mash tun then you probably used too much sparge water.  You should be measuring the volume into the kettle so you know when you are at your desired preboil volume.

Are you sure your efficiency is set correctly in Beersmith?  If your process normally yields 60% and Beersmith is assuming 75%, your gravity will not match the estimated gravity by Beersmith.

When adjusting mash temp to correct for a missed target temp, use a calculator (mine for example http://ee.isa-geek.net/beercalc.htm) to determine the amount of water you needs to add at a specific temperature to adjust to your target.  Without a good understanding of thermal dynamic and heat index of the components, it is tough to guess right.

As maltlicker advised, if the gravity goes down, you measured wrong.  Gravity will start the same or increase as the wort concentrates.  It can't go down unless diluted or measured incorrectly.

 
My findings..............

Equipment \ Lauter Tun Deadspace = 7.0 gallons;  I changed that to 0.75 gallons

Mash Profile \ Batch Sparge Options = 50% of MLT, check, uncheck on drain first

These settings say that you DON'T first drain the MLT, and then add 50% more each time you batch.  I think most people drain it, then fill it up.  Maybe fill it twice. 

Mash-out Infusion - manually set at 1.95 quarts per pound ==> 3 gallons mashout.  That's high. 

Grain temp & MLT temp both set at 72F - is that true in winter?

Adjust Temp for Equipment was unchecked - that's worth 2F if your brewspace is cold.

I lengthened Primary to 14 days for a 1.090 beer.  Seven days would be quick.

If you're really getting 75%, then you should get 1.070 pre-boil.  Since you're measuring 1.059, use 64% next time and see how it goes.  Tough to tell with all these equipment setting issues.

Attached and below is the result of these changes.  250 IBU??

Style: Imperial IPA
Recipe: IPA TYPE: All Grain
---RECIPE SPECIFICATIONS-----------------------------------------------
SRM: 8.3 SRM SRM RANGE: 8.0-15.0 SRM
IBU: 250.8 IBU Tinseth IBU RANGE: 60.0-120.0 IBU
OG: 1.090 SG OG RANGE: 1.075-1.090 SG
FG: 1.020 SG FG RANGE: 1.010-1.020 SG
BU:GU: 2.794 Calories: 417 cal/pint Est ABV: 9.18 %
EE%: 75.00 % Batch: 5.00 gal      Boil: 6.78 gal BT: 90 Mins
Amount        Item                                      Type        % or IBU     
1 Pkgs        California Ale (White Labs #WLP001)      Yeast-Ale                 

---WATER CHEMISTRY ADDITIONS----------------

Prepare 9.51 gal Water for Brewing

Ingredients for Mashing
Amount        Item                                      Type        % or IBU     
14.00 lb      Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)            Grain        84.85 %     
1.50 lb      Munich Malt (9.0 SRM)                    Grain        9.09 %       
1.00 lb      Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM)    Grain        6.06 %       

Total Grain Weight: 16.50 lb Total Hops: 16.75 oz.
---MASH PROCESS------MASH PH:5.4 ------
>>>>>>>>>>-ADD WATER CHEMICALS BEFORE GRAINS!!<<<<<<<
Single Infusion, Medium Body
Step Time    Name              Description                        Step Temp   
60 min        Mash In            Add 20.63 qt of water at 169.7 F    154.0 F     
10 min        Mash Out          Add 8.00 qt of water at 210.8 F    168.0 F     

---SPARGE PROCESS---
>>>>>>>>>>-RECYCLE FIRST RUNNINGS & VERIFY GRAIN/MLT TEMPS: 65.0 F/65.0 F
>>>>>>>>>>-ADD BOIL CHEMICALS BEFORE FWH
Drain Mash Tun
Batch Sparge Round 1: Sparge with 2.35 gal of 168.0 F water


---BOIL PROCESS-----------------------------
Est Pre_Boil Gravity: 1.070 Est OG: 1.090 SG
Boil Ingredients
Boil        Amount      Item                                      Type       
90 min      2.00 oz      Chinook [13.00 %]  (90 min)              Hops       
90 min      2.00 oz      Warrior [15.00 %]  (90 min)              Hops       
45 min      1.00 oz      Simcoe [13.00 %]  (45 min)                Hops       
30 min      1.00 oz      Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %]  (30 min)  Hops       
15 min      1.00 oz      Amarillo Gold [8.50 %]  (15 min)          Hops       
10 min      1.00 tsp    Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 min)                Misc       
0 min        1.00 oz      Simcoe [13.00 %]  (0 min)                Hops       
0 min        2.00 oz      Centennial [10.00 %]  (0 min)            Hops       

---FERM PROCESS-----------------------------
Primary Start: 8/22/2010 - 14 Days at 68.0 F
Secondary Start: 9/5/2010 - 14 Days at 68.0 F
Style Carb Range: 2.2-2.7 vols
Bottling Date: 9/19/2010 with 2.4 Volumes CO2:
---NOTES------------------------------------
First attempt at an awesome Imperial IPA.
 

Attachments

  • ipa-revised.bsm
    17.2 KB · Views: 217
In addition to what others have said I think I can add a little to the conversation.  I've taken a look at your recipe and your settings and believe I have found something that should help clear things help.  First, lets go through a little math.  

first, the givens:  Your recipe has 16.5 lbs of grain and you're mashing in at 1.25 qts of water per lb of grain (pretty standard).  So, Beersmith looks at your settings and tells you that you need to mash in 16.5 * 1.25 = 20.625 qts for your first infusion.  We simply divide that by four qts per gallon to get the 5.15625 gallons of water for your first infusion.  

Now what we want to try and figure out is how much is going to end up in our brew kettle when it comes time to boil.  Your mash settings have you doing a mash out with 11.55 qts (or 2.8875 gallons of water) that will be added in addition to the 5.15625 gallons already in there, for a grand total of 5.15625+2.8875=8.04375gallons of water put into the mash tun before any runnings.  Of course we know that you won't get that much out because the grains will absorb a certain amount of that water that it isn't going to give back.  I always use, and I believe BeerSmith uses the convention of the grain holding roughly its weight in water (I always check my math again BS and it always works out (less rounding errors) exactly the same with this convention).  So, since we know a gallon of water weighs roughly 8.35 lbs we need to divide this number into our total grain weight of 16.5 lbs or 16.5/8.35=1.97 (the grain is holding onto 16.5 lbs of water) gallons of water absorbed into the grain.  

So at this point, and I believe this is where your problem is, if you had no deadspace in your MLT and lost no water to evaporation or anything else you could expect your first runnings to be 8.04375 gallons infused - 1.9760479 gallons absorbed = 6.0677 gallons into the brew kettle.  Of course, at this point you will need to sparge and BeerSmith calculates the sparge volume based on what you need to obtain your brew boil volume (I'm not sure why it tells you to top up, I have never needed to do that, Beer Smith calculates volumes so that you don't need to do that actually).  In this case, based in your settings you need an additional .41 gallons which is what Beer Smith will tell you, you need to sparge with.  Again, I zeroed out your deadspace amount (remember this is the wort that, on top of what's absorbed, just won't leave the MLT) and zeroed out your loss to evaporation etc and and the brewsheet matches the numbers I've given above.  So, now, what's your problem.  

I'm not sure why but you have 7 gallons of deadspace in your equipment setting!!!!! I have a hard time believing you are really losing those much wort, if you are then you may need to reconsider your MLT and how it's set up.  My guess is that its just a typo or mistake that you forgot about or something simple like that.  But, lets just say it's true and you really are losing this much wort, If we go back to the numbers above and include the 7 gallons of deadspace what happens is we can take our 6.0677 gallons of expected first runnings and minus out the 7 gallons of deadspace which leaves us -.9323 in the hole.  Since what you want is 6.47 gallons for your brew kettle Beer Smith then tells you to add 7.41 gallons of water.  Since you only lose the 7 gallons to deadspace once, you end up with 7.41+-.9323 which equals 6.47 gallons for your brew boil volume.  

Now, having said all of that, what I don't understand is why BeerSmith is telling you to add an addition 4.94 gallons (2.47 gallons twice)?  That one has me stumped and to be quite honest, according to my understanding of the numbers BeerSmith should not be telling you to do that.  Based on your settings, it should only be telling you to add the one sparge round of 7.41 gallons.  I'm wondering if the deadspace being so big that its larger than your first runnings confuses BS?  I don't know the algorithms BS uses but that would be my guess.  

In summary:  If you understand how much water should be absorbed, plus how much you should lose to things like deadspace you really don't need BS to calculate this stuff.  The math is easy enough that you can calculate it all yourself.  The additional sparge rounds it's telling you to do is weird and I'm not sure why.   I'd suggest SIGNIFICANTLY lowering your deadspace, I typically use .15 gallons and it has me pretty dialed in.  Finally, make sure you are adjusting your hydrometer for the temp it's at when taking the measurement.  Unless you've added water, your post boil gravity should never be less than your pre boil gravity.

Hope this helps,

$0.02      
 
JLento,

+1 on what all three of the guys said. They are steering you right!!  However, I do have my $0.02 ........

Damn Guy ........... You gotta really love hops.  ;D  Wow ........ I couldn't spit after reading the numbers!!  :p

Seriously, use the advice already given and if you were trying to copy a recipe, re check the hop values.

If you were developing your own recipe, look at similar published examples to get and idea where you need to be! :-X

You'll get!

Preston
 
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