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Mash Out temperature

Bitterbrush

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Did my second batch with Beersmith this weekend and I am having a problem with the Mash Out temperature.  I use the Single Infusion with a batch sparge.  My Mash In temps are perfect but my Mash Out temp comes in too low.  Beersmith said to use 200.5f for a mash temp of 168f.  But I only ended up with 160f.  How can I get the mash out temp up?  I'm at 4200 elevation and my boil comes in at 204f.

Oh yeah, this is my first post here. 
 
168 Mash temp?  :eek:  Seems WAY too high for sacchrification.  What kind of crazy beer style are you making?
 
I don't believe Beersmith auto corrects for the drop in temp at the end of the mash, it just uses the initial mash value in the infusion temp calculation.  You can always take a reading shortly before mash out and plug that in to the infusion strike temp calculator for a corrected temp.  I don't bother recalculating my mash out temp, I just add my mash out infusion at essentially boiling.  As long as I'm fully converted (I do an iodine test) I'm not worried about denaturing the enzymes.  I've never been able to actually get to 168 but any increase in temp will reduce the viscosity of the mash and help keep the sugars flowing.    Oh yeah, I typically single infuse  batch sparge as well.

Blah, in re-reading that post I got sick of all the times I wrote "temp" but what would I use in its place.
 
mhenry41h said:
168 Mash temp?  :eek:  Seems WAY too high for sacchrification.  What kind of crazy beer style are you making?

I mash at 151 with this beer.  I mash out at 168.


glastctbrewer said:
I don't bother recalculating my mash out temp, I just add my mash out infusion at essentially boiling.  As long as I'm fully converted (I do an iodine test) I'm not worried about denaturing the enzymes.  I've never been able to actually get to 168 but any increase in temp will reduce the viscosity of the mash and help keep the sugars flowing.   

I'm just going to raise my mash out temp to boiling, this will get me closer to 168 but still short.  I then sparge at 168.  This setup got me close to 80% brewhouse efficiency, so I'm not complaining too much.  After looking Beersmith over I just can't see anywhere to make an adjustment to that Mash Out temperature.  Don't want to add more water volume to the mash out, so all I can do is raise the temperature, if Beersmith says 200 I'll just go up to boiling.
 
Bitterbrush said:
mhenry41h said:
168 Mash temp?  :eek:  Seems WAY too high for sacchrification.  What kind of crazy beer style are you making?

I mash at 151 with this beer.  I mash out at 168.


glastctbrewer said:
I don't bother recalculating my mash out temp, I just add my mash out infusion at essentially boiling.  As long as I'm fully converted (I do an iodine test) I'm not worried about denaturing the enzymes.  I've never been able to actually get to 168 but any increase in temp will reduce the viscosity of the mash and help keep the sugars flowing.   

Sorry, I read your post as though you were mashing at 168!  My bad

I'm just going to raise my mash out temp to boiling, this will get me closer to 168 but still short.  I then sparge at 168.  This setup got me close to 80% brewhouse efficiency, so I'm not complaining too much.  After looking Beersmith over I just can't see anywhere to make an adjustment to that Mash Out temperature.  Don't want to add more water volume to the mash out, so all I can do is raise the temperature, if Beersmith says 200 I'll just go up to boiling.
 
How much 204F water did you add?  Unless it gets insane, you could add more mash-out water to get closer to 168F. 

What I do is add 5 qts of boiling water each time.  If I'm mashing warm-ish (154F) I get close to 166-168F.  If I am mashing lower, I don't get quite up to mash-out temps, but I've still raised the mash temp, increased liquidity, and killed some enzymes. 
 
    This is just a shot in the dark. If you go to your mash profile where it has Grain Weight, Grain Temperature, Mash Boil Temp, Mash Tun Temp.
In the box Mash Boil Temp, I think the default is at 212 degres. Try adjusting that to 204 or maybe 200 degres ( once it's off heat it's no longer boiling )
Maybe by adjusting the Mash Boil Temp, it will help you to reach your proper mash out temp. (Just Guessing thou)
[/quote]
Bitterbrush said:
  How can I get the mash out temp up?  I'm at 4200 elevation and my boil comes in at 204f.
 
"...After looking Beersmith over I just can't see anywhere to make an adjustment to that Mash Out temperature..."

Bitterbrush, try this (if you haven't already):
- In the Recipe View, go to the Mash Profile section of your recipe and click on the "Details" button.
- When that window opens, double-click on the "Mashout" step.
- When THAT window opens, look for the "Step Temperature" field and adjust as needed.

Hope it helps (hope I read your question correctly!)

Gogol
 
I'll ask the question:  Is you thermometer calibrated?  I have been burned by that before. 
 
Bitterbrush,

We think your question may have been misunderstood or maybe we are misunderstanding. To us, it sounds like BeerSmith correctly targets your basic infusion temp but doesn't hit the desired mash out temp. We also understand you are at high altitude and have a 204*F boiling point. First - be sure you tell BeerSmith what your boiling temp is. This is done at the top left of the Mash Profile box. I think you will find that it will takes too much water to get the mash out of 168*F and still have any left for sparging.

Here's what we do for the same reason. We always Batch Sparge. So we use our sparge water rather than our mash water to bring the grains up to Mash Out temps. We set it up by selecting one of the three "Single Infusion, XXXX Body, Batch Sparge" profiles. This is a single step, no mash out. We open the Mash Profile "Details" and check all three boxes to (1) Batch Sparge using batches that fill <90%> of the mash tun volume. (2) Sparge using equal size batches. (3) Drain the mash tun before starting the batch sparge.  Look at your "Brewsheet" to see the volume of your first sparge step. Now you monitor your mash temp and especially the ending temp. Say your step was 150 and you end at 147. Use the "Strike/Infusion Temp Tool on the tool bar at the left of the screen. Set up the calculation as "Initial Strike", then your "Target Step Temp" as your desired mash out temp of 168, the "water to add" is your first batch sparge volume, then under your Starting Conditions, enter the grain weight and use your mash ending temperature ( say the 147*F ) as your grain temp. This will give you the temp of your sparge water that will bring the grains up to or very near mash out temp. Stir well then hold it there for 15 min. before draining.  Works like a charm. We are consistently in the 85% to 87% efficiency range using this method.

Clear as mud??  ??? Try it, you'll get it and it will work for you too! :D


Sound like you are well on your way!! Good Luck!

Preston
 
This is based on a common formula to calculate the amount of water you will need to raise the mass of one temp to another.  This is based on the thermodynamics of the mash mass.  I think you can find the formula in how to brew.  Based on 151f --> 168F, the calculation is ((168-151)*((0.4*12)+18))/(200-168) which comes out to 12.1 quarts of 200f water.

If your mash has dropped in temp has dropped 3f you need about 20% more 200f water.  It takes twice as a much 200f water to go to 168f than it does to go to 160f (from 151f).

I just add 168-170 F batch sparge water.
 
Your advice is clear as mud.  :-[ My effeciency is poor, around 65% at best. I batch sparge and hit the temps ok but always with 59-65% effeciency.  Can you explain again your method in a little more detail for an FNG all grain brewer? ("F word verb".. New Guy - to all grain)

Thanks,
Dan

Pirate Point Brewer said:
Bitterbrush,

We think your question may have been misunderstood or maybe we are misunderstanding. To us, it sounds like BeerSmith correctly targets your basic infusion temp but doesn't hit the desired mash out temp. We also understand you are at high altitude and have a 204*F boiling point. First - be sure you tell BeerSmith what your boiling temp is. This is done at the top left of the Mash Profile box. I think you will find that it will takes too much water to get the mash out of 168*F and still have any left for sparging.

Here's what we do for the same reason. We always Batch Sparge. So we use our sparge water rather than our mash water to bring the grains up to Mash Out temps. We set it up by selecting one of the three "Single Infusion, XXXX Body, Batch Sparge" profiles. This is a single step, no mash out. We open the Mash Profile "Details" and check all three boxes to (1) Batch Sparge using batches that fill <90%> of the mash tun volume. (2) Sparge using equal size batches. (3) Drain the mash tun before starting the batch sparge.  Look at your "Brewsheet" to see the volume of your first sparge step. Now you monitor your mash temp and especially the ending temp. Say your step was 150 and you end at 147. Use the "Strike/Infusion Temp Tool on the tool bar at the left of the screen. Set up the calculation as "Initial Strike", then your "Target Step Temp" as your desired mash out temp of 168, the "water to add" is your first batch sparge volume, then under your Starting Conditions, enter the grain weight and use your mash ending temperature ( say the 147*F ) as your grain temp. This will give you the temp of your sparge water that will bring the grains up to or very near mash out temp. Stir well then hold it there for 15 min. before draining.  Works like a charm. We are consistently in the 85% to 87% efficiency range using this method.

Clear as mud??  ??? Try it, you'll get it and it will work for you too! :D


Sound like you are well on your way!! Good Luck!

Preston





 
A couple comments after reading Pirate Point Brewer's comment:

Brew Smith will tell you to mashout at 168, but as near as I can tell, it won't directly alllow you to correct for temp loss during mashing.  This would be a nice addition to a future version maybe?  The Strike/Infusion tool is what you use currently to correct for the actual temperatures - which you need to measure.  For more info on how to use this tools go to the help menu. 

Unless you adjust the sparge batch fill volume in mash profile "details" from <90%> to <60%> or less, you will only get one sparge step.  <43%> or less gets 3 (and up) steps.  You will only want the FIRST sparge step at the elevated temp predicted by the Strike/Infusion tool - the rest should be at 168 (or measure actual after each step and correct - but I suspect the corrections at this point will be small and not gain a lot).

Maybe this helps clear things up?

One thing I wasn't aware of - you can put formulas in entry fields - so for instance if you know you need to add 4.2 gallons but the field is in quarts, you can enter 4.2*4 and it accepts it as 16.8.  I like this  ;D
 
I had similar problems hitting my mash-out temps using a cooler as a mash tun.  An addition issue arises when you can't add enough water to hit 168 if your MT is nearly full.  The solution, as brilliantly suggest by BeerSmith forum users a while back was to use a decoction mash .  There is a specific calculator (Decoction Volume) that takes your current measurements (you enter the values), including the current MT grain temp and the wort boiling temp and then calculates the volume of wort to be decocted, brought to a boil and added back to the MT.  I found it to work out excellent and enabled 10 gallon batches in a ten gallon igloo cooler while hitting the a mash-out of 168.  It takes a bit more work and equipment but the technique has its place. You may have to set up your own decoction profile as BS may not have them in the default list.  I can attach some that I've used if anyone would like.

cheers
 
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