Author Topic: -Batch Tweaks- new problem  (Read 5136 times)

Offline waterskj

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-Batch Tweaks- new problem
« on: March 04, 2012, 06:48:18 AM »
Okay ignoring the IBU issue from before I ran across another oddity - This goes with the theory of now modifying the "batch recipe"

I brewed a beer yesterday - BIAB - hitting numbers was "ok"

Had to add 2 liters pre-boil because it was the second brew of the day and I didnt feel like squeezing the bag "like crazy"

My Pre-boil OG was slighly lower than expected - okay I can account for that in my method

However at the end of the boil I encountered my "issue" with the program

At the end of the boil I was to have 2L trub loss and 24L batch - And this was pretty much spot on -

EXCEPT - due to higher trub/hops mess I actual stopped the transfer and Had 4L trub loss and 22L batch

Now I think we can all agree that no matter what I do here from a volumn sharing point of view I am not changing my OG (1.050)
The recipie is not changing - the process is not changing
I can leave as much "trub loss volumn" in the boil vessle and my OG into my fermenter should not change..

However "modifying the recipie" to 4L and 22L changes the recipies Expected number from

1.052 SG to 1.056 SG

So my question is - should'nt the calculations calculate the Beer numbers be based on Trub+batch - where Trub loss (and bottling loss) hurt your "brewhouse eff"

Offline tom_hampton

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Re: -Batch Tweaks- new problem
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2012, 08:49:23 AM »
It may have something to do with exactly which numbers you are adjusting.  You didn't say which ones you changed.

If it were me, I would adjust:

Measured Batch Volume = 22L
Trub Loss = 4L

I don't do BIAB, and haven't tried to use BS2 to create a BIAB recipe.  So, I may have something wrong for BIAB.  But, that is how I do it for a standard Mash-tun based batch. 

In most cases where there is a "planned" versus actual value the actual values start with the word "measured" (or "meas"), and the planned value either doesn't have a prefix or starts with "Estimated" or "Est".  Additionally, if you hover your mouse over a parameter the tooltip that is displayed will also start with "estimated" or "measured" in many cases.  The "estimated" parameters are used to "predict" the outcome of the brew (OG, FG, etc).  The "measured" ones are not.

Always adjust "measured" parameters on brewday, not the base recipe.

 

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Aging/Storing: Coffee Porter, Chocolate Porter, Flanders Red, English Barlywine
Fermenting: Maggie's Altbier
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Offline Myk

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Re: -Batch Tweaks- new problem
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2012, 09:05:28 AM »
You change your batch size to match what is into the fermenter. You adjust your trub loss to reflect actual. Your boil volume gets automatically calculated.

I'm guessing you're trying to leave it there but the extra trub loss hurt your brewhouse efficiency so that also needs adjusted which will in turn change your mash efficiency and gravity because that's the only place it can change.

I think this is a real problem trying to use an after the fact number to predict gravities before the fact. Maybe Brewhouse works better for pros where things don't change as often as for homebrewers.

Offline waterskj

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Re: -Batch Tweaks- new problem
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2012, 11:35:58 AM »
I guess thats my problem with brewhouse efficiency - all the steps up to post boil are the same and my mash efficiency is not effected (affected?) by whether or not I spill 2L or wort on the floor "post boil..

So it seems I need to "work around" the issue by putting 0 trub loss and making a 25L batch size then "offline" keep in mind that I will lose some to trub losses - which seems silly

Offline Myk

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Re: -Batch Tweaks- new problem
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2012, 03:56:10 PM »
Why do you think that would that be your best solution?
You are correct, your mash efficiency doesn't change because you lost more trub and when you don't adjust your brewhouse efficiency to make up for the lower brewhouse efficiency higher losses causes BeerSmith boosts something to make up for you having the wrong brewhouse efficiency entered and that's an increase in mash efficiency.

I just put a BIAB pretend recipe in.
70% brewhouse, 6 gallon batch, half gallon trub loss, est OG 1.049, est mash eff 75.8%.

Oh no, I lost an extra half gallon to trub. Adjust batch size down, est OG goes 1.053. Adjust trub loss without changing brewhouse efficiency, OG stays 1.053 but mash efficiency goes to 82.7%.
Adjust brewhouse efficiency down 6% to account for the extra trub loss, OG goes to 1.049 where it was and est mash eff goes back to 75.6% where it originally was.
I end up with 64% brewhouse, 5.5 gallon batch, 1 gallon trub loss, est OG 1.049, est mash eff 75.6%.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 03:58:40 PM by Myk »

Offline tom_hampton

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Re: -Batch Tweaks- new problem
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2012, 11:13:21 PM »
As I said above the right way to handle this is to adjust MEASURED batch volume,  NOT estimate batch volume.  You don't need to mess with effficiency once you have started to brew.
R.I.P.:Belgian Blonde
On Tap: Apfelwein, Kolsch(v2), Pumpkin Ale, Belgian Specialty 
Aging/Storing: Coffee Porter, Chocolate Porter, Flanders Red, English Barlywine
Fermenting: Maggie's Altbier
Next Up: PtE(1.1), Belgian Dubbel?

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Offline Myk

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Re: -Batch Tweaks- new problem
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2012, 12:33:27 AM »
If you ignore BeerSmith's estimates it's never learning how to estimate your recipes.
Also if you don't correct its estimates things such as carbonation or yeast starters will be incorrect because they're based on the estimates not measured.

What doesn't matter is what BeerSmith says your efficiency numbers are. Those are just a means to the end. It doesn't matter if BeerSmith says my mash efficiency is different than it actually is as long as it predicts my gravity with my volumes.

Offline tom_hampton

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Re: -Batch Tweaks- new problem
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2012, 11:07:13 AM »
Myk-

I agree that the only thing that matters is the SG and volume into the fermenter.  But, you and I go about ensuring that in completely different ways.   I simply update the "measured" parameters in BS2, and leave the "estimated" numbers alone.  I find it useful to track planned vs. actual within the recipe itself. 

You do that in a different way.  But, as we've argued about before....you record your "planned" recipe differently.  I think that methodology is key to being able to do it the way you do, without losing some historical data. 

If BS2 is using the "estimated" volume/SG instead of the "measured" ones for carbonation and yeast starters I think that is simply a bug.  Such calculation should be based on measured values unless they are "0".     Anything that uses OG/FG, volume into fermenter/bottling, etc as the basis for a calculation should ALWAYS use the MEASURED data, if available.   That's a separate thread, though. I'll start one in the bugs section.

EDIT: Ha!  Just saw your post from back in Januar about carbonation in the bugs forum.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 11:58:29 AM by tom_hampton »
R.I.P.:Belgian Blonde
On Tap: Apfelwein, Kolsch(v2), Pumpkin Ale, Belgian Specialty 
Aging/Storing: Coffee Porter, Chocolate Porter, Flanders Red, English Barlywine
Fermenting: Maggie's Altbier
Next Up: PtE(1.1), Belgian Dubbel?

Working thru all BCS recipes