Wacky Gravities

beernbourbon · Jan 27, 2013

Ok gang....here's what I've got. I made an AG Traditional Bock, I've included the recipe below for the details I know you need.... everything seemed to go as planned, maybe a couple quarts high on the water in the mash as i was going along. Mash temps seemed to be within a few degrees...no more than 10 low... I know, not ideal, but working on my methods here, not a fault of the equipment.
My Est. OG as you can see was intended to be 1.071, but I ended up with 1.048
My Est. FG is supposed to be 1.014.....seems like a HUGE difference, but I just let BS do its thing. I measured my gravity after 2 weeks, and it came up with 1.024
After placing in the primary in an admittedly slightly chilly room... air temp about 50 to 52, it went really gangbusters for about 36 hours, then nada.... I swirled it, I moved it, still nada.....so I left it.....thinking I'd see when it was time to secondary. I know there are differing opinions, but I thought I'd give it a shot, and I am VERY conscientious with my sanitizing of everything.
Based on everything I have read here and in the 'bibles'....I'm considering a very cautious move to a secondary, pitching a 2 qt starter of Saflager s-23 I've been keeping......you know...just in case

So, what's the concensus guys? Am I on the right track? Or should I just leave it another few days, bottle it and move on.

Boil Size: 7.00 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.87 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 4.51 gal
Estimated OG: 1.071 SG
Estimated Color: 20.4 SRM
Estimated IBU: 21.4 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 86.4 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
6 lbs Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 1 44.6 %
6 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 44.6 %
1 lbs Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM) Grain 3 7.4 %
4.0 oz Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 4 1.9 %
3.2 oz Carafa III (525.0 SRM) Grain 5 1.5 %
0.50 oz Hallertauer [4.30 %] - First Wort 60.0 m Hop 6 6.8 IBUs
1.00 oz Hallertauer [4.30 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 7 12.3 IBUs
1.00 tbsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 mins) Fining 8 -
0.50 oz Hallertauer [4.30 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 9 2.2 IBUs
2.0 pkg Bohemian Lager (Wyeast Labs #2124) [4.20 Yeast 10 -

Mash Schedule: Decoction Mash, Double
Total Grain Weight: 13 lbs 7.2 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Protein Rest Add 30.10 qt of water at 126.1 F 122.0 F 35 min
Saccharification Decoct 9.53 qt of mash and boil it 147.0 F 20 min
Saccharification Decoct 4.75 qt of mash and boil it 156.0 F 20 min
Mash Out Heat to 168.0 F over 10 min 168.0 F 10 min

Sparge: Fly sparge with 1.89 gal water at 168.0 F

durrettd · Jan 28, 2013

beernbourbon,

Step 1: Change the recipe to read Schwarzbier.
Step 2: Check the gravity every few days to convince yourself fermentation is progressing.
Step 3: let it sit in the primary until the gravity stabilizes; your procedures kept it sanitized and your yeast obviously dominated the early fermentation. Finally, 50 to 52 is great for a lager yeast. It'll be fine.
Step 4: Relax and have a home brew.
Step 5: While you're having that home brew, make notes and consult them in the future.

beernbourbon · Jan 28, 2013

well......
1-not sure what the change of style will do for me.....did it and didn't seem to change anything. This was pretty much a copy of a traditional Bock recipe out of Zainasheff's book....
2-Way past checking every day for stability....it's done....stabilized at 1.024 for the last 4 days, since I started checking. However, I will be checking the next batch from the beginning, since I now have a carboy whereby I am able to use a thief.....and follow tom's methods.
3-I'm good on this one, I think. I was just concerned I didn't have enough yeast...or too cold to start. But, being the right temp for a lager, I'll bow to experience on that one.
4- yeah...no issues THERE...lol.... testing out my milk stout.....albeit a bit green at the moment. Polishing off the fat tire clone, tho...discovered it isn't my favorite style, but I'm ok with it.
5-always keep copious notes. My profession demands it, so it kinda spills over into civilian life.

I can honestly say I don't ever remember having a Bock, so I don't know what it will taste like by comparison....I made this for my brother in law, coming up from FL in March, so we'll see what he has to say. I just don't like the fact that my calculations indicate my ABV is going to be +/- 3.1% when it shoulda been closer to 7.5%.....this I know for certain will disappoint. Although my sister will appreciate the fact he won't be getting drunk off my homebrew! :

Ah well, I guess I must learn patience and better mashing procedures......maybe not quite so ambitious for my second try at AG.....a double decoction might have been a bit over my head ;D

Maine Homebrewer · Jan 28, 2013

What is your method/equipment for sparging? With barely two gallons of water to wash off the grain, I'm thinking you left a lot of sugars behind. That would explain the low starting gravity.

Also, I never go strictly off times when mashing. You should always do an iodine test to be sure. Otherwise you can end up with an incomplete conversion resulting in starchy beer with an unintentionally high final gravity. Especially if your temps were low. The lower the mash temp, the longer the conversion time. I mashed my last brew in the 140 -145 range and (as expected) it took a little over two hours before a full conversion was confirmed with an iodine test. If you were ten degrees low and mashed for less than an hour, I'm thinking you had an incomplete conversion. That would explain the high final gravity.

I made this for my brother in law, coming up from FL in March, so we'll see what he has to say.

Just because it wasn't what you intended doesn't mean it won't be good. I doubt he'll know the difference.

beernbourbon · Jan 28, 2013

I watched my sparge temp very closely, worried about being too high, but then, per Palmer's direction, I slowly added the sparge water.......but now that I think of it.....dammit...I didn't pay attention to that first bit that would have been 'cloudy'....and run it back through. Dang....missed that one...ok, note to self......
Hmmmmm.... I'm unsure of the iodine testing procedure, I remember seeing a post about it the other day....I'll have to look that up for my next batch. Agreed, lack of sugars would definitely explain the low gravity. Had not thought of that avenue. As I mentioned, I was looking more in the direction of too much water in the overall scheme of things diluting my wort from the start of the boil, then not realizing that, topping up. I've got enough brewpot space, I just need to get used to the idea of being able to use it.
I think I also had an image of mash being....well, maybe the consistency of grits. Not sure where I got that image, but when I was going through it, I felt like it was way too liquid-y. Maybe just a misdirected image? Which is where I felt like too much water. I was quite remiss in my measurements during the initial rest and subsequent mash....rather loosy goosey you might say? 'yeah, that looks about right'....completely falling off the wagon of tight measurements I usually drive.
Sigh.....so much to learn..... ah well.... can't get it lernt all 'twonce as grandpa used to say.

Thanks guys....I really appreciate your input!

Maine Homebrewer · Jan 29, 2013

Recirculating is a good idea, but it's not a deal breaker. My last brew was a wheat and I had a terribly stuck sparge. I had no choice but to let some of the cloudy stuff into the brewpot. No biggy.

As far as the iodine test goes, I just did a search for "iodine homebrew starch test" on youtube and came back with a ton of results. Look it up. Just remember to never ever mix the iodine back into the mash if you want your yeast to live.

Don't worry about pre-boil volume. If you put in extra then you boil a little longer. No big deal. Better to start with 8 gallons and extend the boil than to leave what would be a couple percentage points of alcohol behind in the grain. That's alcohol abuse!

Don't worry about mash consistency at this point. Temperature is more important. Better to have the strike water be a little hot since it's easier to cool the mash than heat it.

rather loosy goosey you might say? 'yeah, that looks about right'....

Pretty much describes how I brew. Brewing at home is as much art as it is science. It only becomes a rigorous science when you are responsible for thousands of gallons being exactly the same over and over and over.

Hope that helps.

beernbourbon · Jan 29, 2013

Yep, definitely helps. I'm usually one of those guys that follows a recipe (cooking in general) to a T until I figure out that it needs to change, so I try to follow the stuff too closely. I seriously think I was way over my head with a double decoction for my first AG...but hey, deep end, jump, right? trying to decide which to go first IPA for my boys, or the corona for my other BIL....little further down on the difficulty scale either way I go.
Ha...I'll keep that in mind....'no iodine in da mash'...and I'll definitely look that up
So, even though the 'recipe' calls for a 60 min. boil....I let it go til I reach......what....post boil volume of 5 gals? (assuming that's my target of course)
I'll keep you posted.... it's settled out at 1.024, so I'll probably bottle in the next few days.

I most definitely appreciate all the help I'm getting, and I see you and Tom on here a lot, and you guys have a lot of good advice, should one choose to follow it, eh?

BTW.... the Milk Chocolate Stout I asked about a while back turned out....eh....ok :-\ It's only been in the fridge for a couple weeks, and I tried one.....yow.... is there a way to test the alcohol content once it's bottled??? I'm thinkin' I'm way up there. Granted it's a bit green yet, but holy cow...uh...no pun intended.... ish a bid srong.... haha...

MaltLicker · Jan 29, 2013

beernbourbon said:
Estimated OG: 1.071 SG
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 86.4 %

Amt Name Type # %/IBU
6 lbs Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 1 44.6 %
6 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 44.6 %
1 lbs Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM) Grain 3 7.4 %
4.0 oz Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 4 1.9 %
3.2 oz Carafa III (525.0 SRM) Grain 5 1.5 %

Total Grain Weight: 13 lbs 7.2 oz

Sparge: Fly sparge with 1.89 gal water at 168.0 F

BSmith said you would get 1.071 from 13.5 lbs of grain b/c you told it your sparging was pretty efficient. That fact that you came up 23 points short is more than just brew-to-brew variance, I would think.

I would agree that a 2X decoction was aggressive for a first AG batch. You may wish to do more single infusions of more standard 1.055 gravities until you "dial in" your current system and process. Once you repeat the system efficiency a couple times, you can start looking for improvements like grain crush, very slow lautering, keeping the sparge at 168F, water chemistry (maybe), and other stuff.

Welcome to all grain!

Maine Homebrewer · Jan 29, 2013

So, even though the 'recipe' calls for a 60 min. boil....I let it go til I reach......what....post boil volume of 5 gals? (assuming that's my target of course)

Once you dial it in you'll get a feel for what starting volume will reach your target volume in an hour.

For a professional brewer the hops and final volume are variables based upon the pre-boil volume and gravity, while the hop flavor and final gravity are constants.

For the average home brewer the hops and final volume are constants based upon the recipe and equipment, while the hop flavor and final gravity vary based upon the process.

That's why they get paid to brew and we don't.

is there a way to test the alcohol content once it's bottled???

Not that I know of with the tools available to the average home brewer.

beernbourbon · Jan 29, 2013

@maltlicker-
Yeah...didn't even know how or to what to change the efficiencies...or even why and what the results of that change would be.... I just remember Palmer saying something about leaving it at 72% and it would work itself out....maybe....I think? Hell, I can't remember what I had for breakfast, why would I think I would remember what Palmer said about that....I'll have to look it up.
I hold no illusions that this was a 'brew to brew' variance....this was a 'Scott had no flippin clue what he was doing' variance.....
live, learn, drink more beer so the bottles are ready for more.....

Dang...wish I could figure out the ABV on the milk stout.... 'tis a bit warm....

Not to speak heresy.....but what if I poured a bottle into my thief and checked it with the hydrometer and adjusted for temp? Does it work that way after bottling...I don't know the science behind why it works in the wort and fermenter..... just an off the wall question I guess....

Maine Homebrewer · Jan 30, 2013

You calculate alcohol content by subtracting the final gravity from the initial gravity.

If you don't know the initial gravity you're S.O.L.

Sorry.

beernbourbon · Jan 30, 2013

mmmmmm......hafta look at me notes...... damn...that's the one I started checking gravities, but took first reading to check to see if it was done in primary...bummer....ah well. We'll see what happens over time.

beernbourbon · Feb 2, 2013

quick update-
bottled today, using 3.55oz corn sugar. Tasted ...... eh...ok....definitely a bit weak, and slightly......fizzy? Not really the right word, as that gives the impression of carbonation.... not like that, but just a VERY slight tingle/fizz on the tongue.
Otherwise, seems ok.
Headed for a Belgian blond for summer, we'll see how that goes.

MaltLicker · Feb 2, 2013

beernbourbon said:
@maltlicker-
Yeah...didn't even know how or to what to change the efficiencies...or even why and what the results of that change would be.... I just remember Palmer saying something about leaving it at 72% and it would work itself out....maybe....I think?

Palmer's right about it working out, but I think he means that over time, you will work out what your consistent EE% will be on "typical" batches. EE% falls for most brewers on higher gravity brews. Mid-seventies is fine, but as a first-timer, you might only get 55 or 60%.

Every batch is different.