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Volumes

beernbourbon

Grandmaster Brewer
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Cincinnati Ohio...Home of the resurrected Christia
Ok guys, I've got my own question now about volumes.
I've been through the equipment profile.
I've meticulously measured every bit of liquid at every stage that I can.
Here's what I got.... the last 3 brews my final volumes have been SIGNIFICANTLY over what the estimates are. We're talking by about 1 1/2-2 gallons.
I intially had my tun dead space at the default 0.8 gallons (102oz). I consistently am running less than 24oz, so I adjusted that.
My boil off, evap, and shrinkage are all within accepted parameters.
The only place I can seem to find a possible issue is the loss to trub and chiller. I use a double helix 50' 3/8 copper wort chiller, so I'm thinking that's not part of it. I use a hop spider, and I have very little trub in my kettle. I always use irish moss (my beers have always come out crystal clear since I started using it), and there is a little trub from that, but we're talking worst case, maybe 4oz. I'm thinking I need to adjust that volume (loss to trub and chiller) down quite a bit. Anyone else have any thoughts?
 
I would use 0 if you have a hop spider. Is there really any liquid left in the kettle after you transfer to fermenter?
 
Yea, it's only a true loss if it stays behind.  If you filter through the gunk somehow and the liquid makes it to the fermenter, then it's not real loss. 

If the trub and litter is wet, then maybe a pint or quart?
 
With the hops you are going to lose something because they absorb wort but if you drain everything out of the kettle and leave it all at the bottum of the primary fermenter then it is a fermentation loss and not a trub loss.
 
Curly55 said:
With the hops you are going to lose something because they absorb wort but if you drain everything out of the kettle and leave it all at the bottum of the primary fermenter then it is a fermentation loss and not a trub loss.

Hmmm....well, true enough, but I'm ok with the fermentation loss....I expect that with yeast, and whatever other goodies might have been suspended upon transfer to fermenter.... my issue is when I'm putting it in the fermenter, I have more beer than I bargained for. Yeah, I know, tough problem, but when you have a 6 gallon carboy, and your other bucket is full, putting 7 1/2 to almost 8 gallons in it, not to mention the 2 liters of yeast starter...... the phrase 10 pounds o poo in a 5 pound sack comes to mind..... I had that happen with a batch last month. Had a fermenter full, ready to be bottled, but just hadn't done it, thinking... 'eh, I'll do it tomorrow once I'm done brewing for the weekend'.... well, I had to end up bottling that batch, cleaning/sanitizing everything, splitting the batch into 3.5 gallons per fermenter, and finally going to bed around 3am...
I know, simple solution, buy another fermenter....I'm gettin' there, it's on the list for this week....problem still exists: why are my numbers so off. I do think the trub loss is my culprit. I'm going to twist that down to about 1/4 gallon and see where that settles out. I'm brewing every weekend for the next 6 weeks, so I'll be able to figure something out pretty quickly.
 
It took a while to figure this out; but I too had volume issues and also pointed my finger at the ol' "Loss to Trub and Chiller" in my EP setup.

I was set for a 5.25 G batch size with trub loss set to the default 0.4 G, and I wasn't seeing enough going into my fermentor, so I upped the Trub Loss to make up the difference and my OG tanked! I then dropped the Trub Loss to zero and noticed my EE% was all over the map!

Turns out the gravity calculators in BS2 are positioned in such a way that losses to trub and chiller are left on their own and affect only the initial volume and NOT gravity soooooo.... I chose to leave the trub loss set to zero and upped my batch size from 5.25 G to 6 G and PRESTO! I'm hitting my OG and volume targets pretty much spot on now.

I hope this helps...

<edit> I failed to mention I normally experience up to 0.75 G of kettle trub (lots of hop pellets...)
 
philm63 said:
It took a while to figure this out; but I too had volume issues and also pointed my finger at the ol' "Loss to Trub and Chiller" in my EP setup.

I was set for a 5.25 G batch size with trub loss set to the default 0.4 G, and I wasn't seeing enough going into my fermentor, so I upped the Trub Loss to make up the difference and my OG tanked! I then dropped the Trub Loss to zero and noticed my EE% was all over the map!

Turns out the gravity calculators in BS2 are positioned in such a way that losses to trub and chiller are left on their own and affect only the initial volume and NOT gravity soooooo.... I chose to leave the trub loss set to zero and upped my batch size from 5.25 G to 6 G and PRESTO! I'm hitting my OG and volume targets pretty much spot on now.

I hope this helps...

<edit> I failed to mention I normally experience up to 0.75 G of kettle trub (lots of hop pellets...)

Interesting..... so my batch is 5.5g....and what you are saying kinda makes me scratch my head, because I hadn't even thought about that... the last 4 batches I've hit my OG and FG dead on (ok, within .001, but horshoes/hand grenades whatever) even though my volumes have been so freakin' high.
So what you are saying is in line with what grathan said....put my trub at 0, and move on from there?

Of course, the whole thing just took a round to the foot today, as I took delivery of a 16g kettle. So, I'll start from scratch on my EP anyway.....sigh.....
Thanks guys...I'll keep ya posted how it goes this weekend....

 
Phil, I think you are an extract brewer, right?  I looked back through some of your previous posts, and they seem to indicate that your brew extract.  Trub loss behaves differently between extract and AG.  it has exactly the problem you describe for Extract, but it is different for AG.

Beerbourbon-

Trub loss is any pre-boil wort that doesn't make it to the fermenter.  So, if you put your hops in a spider let them soak up wort and them later remove them....its still trub loss.  Ideally, BS2 would have a hops absorbtion, just like grain.  Then we could separate the two discussions.  But, hops generally absorb about 4-5x their weight in wort.  So, in most cases (other than IPA and above) the wort loss is less than half a quart.  Big deal.

Your volumes and your BE% (brewhouse efficiency) are intertwined.  So, you've got to get your volumes close, and your BE% close...then you brew several batches and tweak your volumes and BE% based on experiences.

If you are experiencing excess wort at the end of the boil, there a few places it can come from:

grain absorption - BS2 calculates how much water your grain will absorb.  if your grain is absorbing less than what BS2 is setup for, then you will have excess preboil volume.

MLT deadspace - you've fixed this, it sounds like.  But, 24 oz stil seems high unless you have some funky manifold design.  Are you sure about the 24 oz?  How did you measure it---doing it right is a bit tricky?

Trub loss - As I said above, hops count here.  What kind of kettle do you use?  If you have a flat bottom pot, and you basically drain it dry, then your trub loss should be maybe  8 oz for hops. 

Another point:  When you work problems like this, you need to record every volume at every step of the brew day...and you need to record them accurately.  By accurately, I mean to the 1/2 quart at worst.  When you do that you can then analyze everything after the fact.  You can post them here, and we can do the same. 

Strike volume
first runnings
batch addition
second runnings
pre-boil
post-boil
into fermenter

If you record the above along with the SG of the wort at each step, I can tell you exactly where the extra came from, instead of guessing.  Don't forget to record temperatures of the measurements too.

For the record I record the above for every brew I make.  I also record it 4-6 times during the boil, as well.





 
tom_hampton said:
Trub loss is any pre-boil wort that doesn't make it to the fermenter.  So, if you put your hops in a spider let them soak up wort and them later remove them....its still trub loss.  Ideally, BS2 would have a hops absorbtion, just like grain.  Then we could separate the two discussions.  But, hops generally absorb about 4-5x their weight in wort.  So, in most cases (other than IPA and above) the wort loss is less than half a quart.  Big deal.
Ah, didn't think of it that way, just thinking that there is virtually nothing in the bottom of the kettle....so, no/little trub..... for the next few weeks I'll be running concurrent batches:
IPA 4oz hops
Imperial IPA 6oz hops.
So maybe a bit more than a half quart?

Your volumes and your BE% (brewhouse efficiency) are intertwined.  So, you've got to get your volumes close, and your BE% close...then you brew several batches and tweak your volumes and BE% based on experiences.
Didn't realize they were that intertwined.....I'm running the numbers on the new pot now, to see where my efficiencies are going to be. Saw that last batch of a "light American Lager" run a 93% estimated efficiency. Yeah, not buyin' that one. Still trying to figure out the calculation of 'measured efficiency'

If you are experiencing excess wort at the end of the boil, there a few places it can come from:

grain absorption - BS2 calculates how much water your grain will absorb.  if your grain is absorbing less than what BS2 is setup for, then you will have excess preboil volume.

MLT deadspace - you've fixed this, it sounds like.  But, 24 oz stil seems high unless you have some funky manifold design.  Are you sure about the 24 oz?  How did you measure it---doing it right is a bit tricky?

I'm using 1.25g per lb water to grain.
I use a 10g red rubbermaid, with the domed SS false bottom.
Originally, I used the default of something like .8gallons....my simplistic measurement, probably incorrect, was scraping out the spent grains from the screen until I could see the liquid underneath, then poured that out into a measuring cup. 22-24oz, varying batch to batch. Really didn't know how else to measure it without going through some convoluted area/volume calculation (too many years between the last time I did that in school and now...These days I just measure distances and angles  :p )

Trub loss - As I said above, hops count here.  What kind of kettle do you use?  If you have a flat bottom pot, and you basically drain it dry, then your trub loss should be maybe  8 oz for hops. 
Yep, was using a flat bottom turkey fryer with this funky overflow 'lip' lookin' thing at the top. Drained dry every time, and really the only thing that is left is a tiny bit....maybe 1/4 cup that I'm assuming is generated from the moss/protein interaction
Like I said, new Bayou Classic 16g pot sitting there beggin to be used, so I'm running new numbers on it.

Another point:  When you work problems like this, you need to record every volume at every step of the brew day...and you need to record them accurately.  By accurately, I mean to the 1/2 quart at worst.  When you do that you can then analyze everything after the fact.  You can post them here, and we can do the same.

I certainly appreciate that. I'll do the total run through this weekend. Typically my measurements, what I do make, are to the nearest 2 liquid oz...as I said before, anal about my numbers, am I. 

Strike volume
first runnings
batch addition
second runnings
pre-boil
post-boil
into fermenter

You will probably have to educate me on the details of those terms... here's my guesses:
Strike- first heated water into mash (mash in)
First runnings - ummm.... why measure that, don't I just run it back in, sooooo.....?
Batch addition - water I add for sparging
Second runnings  - same as first?
Pre-boil - my volume in the kettle after it's run the tun 'dry'
Post-boil - all said and done, before addition of starter.
Into fermenter - Hey, I think I know that one....lol

If you record the above along with the SG of the wort at each step, I can tell you exactly where the extra came from, instead of guessing.  Don't forget to record temperatures of the measurements too.
There's one..... a couple months ago, one of the guys said something about your gravity measurement being inaccurate above 90*? I posed the question of 'why does the adjustment calc let you go above that then?' No answer. I'm not trying to be contrary, it was just the only time I've heard of that, before or since. I would have thought that would be a big deal. Thoughts?

For the record I record the above for every brew I make.  I also record it 4-6 times during the boil, as well.
And I thought I was uptight  ;D Just messin' with ya.

I really appreciate your time and expertise, and I'll make a point of recording all that and let you know.
Oh, and count me jealous with your other hobby..... I think I'd probably spend more time in the grass and spinning around than you did, even though I've always sworn that's how I'd probably end up going.... hitting something when in the 3 digit range....with the last thought being 'awww man, this is gonna leave a mark'
 
beernbourbon said:
Ah, didn't think of it that way, just thinking that there is virtually nothing in the bottom of the kettle....so, no/little trub..... for the next few weeks I'll be running concurrent batches:
IPA 4oz hops
Imperial IPA 6oz hops.
So maybe a bit more than a half quart?

Yes, maybe.  The way I handle hop losses for *IPA recipes is to increase the batch size, rather than change the trub loss.  for example, my Pliny clone batch size is set to 7 gallons instead of my usual 5.5. 

Didn't realize they were that intertwined.....I'm running the numbers on the new pot now, to see where my efficiencies are going to be. Saw that last batch of a "light American Lager" run a 93% estimated efficiency. Yeah, not buyin' that one. Still trying to figure out the calculation of 'measured efficiency'

In the real world they absolutely are.  As you leave wort behind in the MLT deadspace, and the kettle the sugar in that wort is lost and doesn't make it to the fermenter.  In Beersmith, you can just change your volumes and not make any changes to your efficiency.  What BS2 will do, is increase your estimated mash eff. to compensate for the new losses.  BS2 assumes that your brewhouse eff. is gospel and adjusts mash-eff. as required.

In reality, your mash-eff is constant, and your BE% varies with system losses.  I and others have griped about this before for this very reason.  if I change my system (replace my kettle for example) so that there are different losses, I have to rework every recipe in order to back into the known mash-eff that I will get, by tweaking the BE% until I get the estimated mash-eff to match what I KNOW I get. 

I'm using 1.25g per lb water to grain.
I use a 10g red rubbermaid, with the domed SS false bottom.
Originally, I used the default of something like .8gallons....my simplistic measurement, probably incorrect, was scraping out the spent grains from the screen until I could see the liquid underneath, then poured that out into a measuring cup. 22-24oz, varying batch to batch. Really didn't know how else to measure it without going through some convoluted area/volume calculation (too many years between the last time I did that in school and now...These days I just measure distances and angles  :p )

That's much more accurate than what most people do.  Many people just fill the MLT with water and drain it, measuring the remainder.  This approach does NOT work, because it doesn't account for the volume taken up by the grain when its a MASH.  What you did is exactly the way that it should be done. 


You will probably have to educate me on the details of those terms... here's my guesses:
Strike- first heated water into mash (mash in)
First runnings - ummm.... why measure that, don't I just run it back in, sooooo.....?
Batch addition - water I add for sparging
Second runnings  - same as first?
Pre-boil - my volume in the kettle after it's run the tun 'dry'
Post-boil - all said and done, before addition of starter.
Into fermenter - Hey, I think I know that one....lol

First/second runnings: I made the assumption that you batch-sparge.  If you fly-sparge then these don't apply.  Continuing with that assumption:

first runnings - the wort that you drain out of the MLT before adding sparge water. 
Second runnings - the wort you drain out of the MLT AFTER adding sparge water.

Post-boil - the hot wort still in the boil kettle. 

There's actually another step that I didn't include because it is easy to calculate:

Cooled-Post-boil - the COLD wort still in the kettle

And I thought I was uptight  ;D Just messin' with ya.

Ha, you have no idea!  My custom brewsheet is seven pages long with multiple tables, charts, and graphs.  I have pH, SG, Temp graphs for both the mash and fermentation.  I have a table for recording SG, Temp, ph, Volume, and total points for sparging and the boil.  I record tasting notes at every stage of the fermentation.  I have reference data and charts for how to calculate extract and lautering efficiencies. 

I have javascripts embedded in the brewsheet for calculating the expected gravity, volume and total points of each stage of my batch sparge process. 

I also have a spreadsheet that records my ideal timeline for a brewday, with blanks for recording my actual times.  If I have a brewday that runs long, I can easily see where it went wrong, and adjust as needed.  I also maintain a bunch of useful reference formulas for the types of things you need to quickly calculate during the day (on the fly efficiencies, pH adjustment additions, etc). 

I even record the time it takes to chill the wort, and if/when I switch to recirculating ice-water in order to reach final pitching temp. 

Making a beer takes a pretty long time from start to finish.  Sometimes the things that occur during the brewday aren't recognized as being significant until 3-6 weeks later.  By the time I know my actual FG is 4 points low, I may have forgotten that I had a slow lauter that allowed enzyme activity to continue for an extra 30 minutes. 

I really appreciate your time and expertise, and I'll make a point of recording all that and let you know.
Oh, and count me jealous with your other hobby..... I think I'd probably spend more time in the grass and spinning around than you did, even though I've always sworn that's how I'd probably end up going.... hitting something when in the 3 digit range....with the last thought being 'awww man, this is gonna leave a mark'

Yeah, driving racecars is just as much fun as you might think.
 
tom_hampton said:
Ha, you have no idea!  My custom brewsheet is seven pages long with multiple tables, charts, and graphs.  I have pH, SG, Temp graphs for both the mash and fermentation.  I have a table for recording SG, Temp, ph, Volume, and total points for sparging and the boil.  I record tasting notes at every stage of the fermentation.  I have reference data and charts for how to calculate extract and lautering efficiencies. 

I have javascripts embedded in the brewsheet for calculating the expected gravity, volume and total points of each stage of my batch sparge process. 

I also have a spreadsheet that records my ideal timeline for a brewday, with blanks for recording my actual times.  If I have a brewday that runs long, I can easily see where it went wrong, and adjust as needed.  I also maintain a bunch of useful reference formulas for the types of things you need to quickly calculate during the day (on the fly efficiencies, pH adjustment additions, etc). 

I even record the time it takes to chill the wort, and if/when I switch to recirculating ice-water in order to reach final pitching temp. 

Do you still use Beersmith then?
 
grathan said:
Do you still use Beersmith then?

Absolutely!  Its a custom BS2 report, that is populated by my recipe from BS2.  I use the BeerXML tags as inputs to the javascript functions for the extra calculations that I do. 

My javascript calculates the SG for each batch in my batch sparge (first and second runnings), as well as volumes and total points.  So, I can tell if I'm likely to be high or low while my wort is still in the mash-tun.  I can make adjustments before I ever even start to sparge. 
 
What benefit is there is running off beersmith vs. just making the whole thing spreadsheet based?
 
grathan said:
What benefit is there is running off beersmith vs. just making the whole thing spreadsheet based?

Quite a bit.  I don't have to write the recipe database backend.  I don't have to rewrite all the various fomulas, and debug them all.  I have written many millions of lines of code in my career.  I know what it takes.  I gripe plenty about BS2, but I'm a long way from redoing it all myself.  I'd rather help make BS2 better. 
 
I'd like to do something like that. Still trying to figure out how to manipulate the xml tags though and which ones are available.
 
I posted a complete list of all xml tags in bs2. Brad sent me the source code for them and I extracted them all. Its a sticky post over in the tips forum I think. I'll post my custom report when I get home next week.

 
tom_hampton said:
I posted a complete list of all xml tags in bs2. Brad sent me the source code for them and I extracted them all. Its a sticky post over in the tips forum I think. I'll post my custom report when I get home next week.

I hate when ya'll start talking 'puter speak  :p

Seriously, your custom report sounds like something I had started. I like to keep things in a spreadsheet....just seems more.....umm organizable (even a word?)...anyway, you know what I mean.
Anyway, that would be cool to have that, Tom.
As always, your help is appreciated.
So, now, it's off to brew. We'll see how it goes, I'll try to keep track of as much as I can
Oh, yes, I bounce back and forth between batch and fly sparging, trying to see which I feel more comfortable with. Fly sparging just seems to take SO long.... brew day is long enough as it is. Today will be batch, since that's how you had described it.
Report back this evening
Thanks to all for the help!!
 
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