Mash profile confusion: Single infusion vs. batch sparge vs. no mash out

Howdy all,

This is my 1st post here.  Hopefully someone can help fill in my knowledge gaps and get me going in the right direction. 
I'm confused by the mash profiles in Beersmith2 so I've been ignoring them and sticking to some written notes I have for Mashing.  I'd like to understand this better and start using them.  I feel like I’m shortchanging myself.  I'll try to outline what I think I understand about each profile and follow up with a question or two afterwards. 

In case this matters I use the following equipment:
-HLT=15gal Keggle
-Tun=10gal thermos
-Kettle=15gal Keggle


I. Single infusion batch sparge seems easy enough to understand. 
-Mash In (1.25quarts X lbs grain) @ 152f for 60min
-Vorlauf till clear 10-15 minutes
-Drain entire tun (First runnings)
-Mash In again @ 168f stir slowly
-Vorlauf till clear 10-15 minutes
-Drain entire tun to reach your target pre boil volume (Second runnings)

Q: the only question I have is about the rate i'm extracting the First runnings.  I normally extract @ about 13min per gallon.  Is this too slow?

II. Single Infusion seems to involve getting your mash heated within 10 minutes to 168f but I’m clear how to do this. 
-Mash In (1.25quarts X lbs grain) @ 152f for 60min
-Mash out to  168f in 10 minutes
-OK I’m lost here

Q:  So how am I raising the temperature when I have a thermos?  Am I adding a large amount of 200f water?  Or is this normally suited for people with Burner/pot tuns?
Q: After the mash is @ 168 am I fly sparging at that point?

III. Single infusion no mash out I assume involves fly sparging.  Listed below are the steps I normally take. 
-Mash In (1.25quarts X lbs grain) @ 152f for 60min
-Vorlauf till clear 10-15m
-Fly sparge with 203f at the rate of 12/13 minutes per gallon till you reach your target pre boil volume (roughly an hour to complete).

Q: Did I get the steps correct?
Q: If I did, I'm confused about the 10 minute mash out.  I'm gradually raising the temp of the mash by fly sparging.  So I don't think I really raise the temperature of the mash to 168/170 within 10 minutes.  Am I OK doing it this way?


Thanks for the guidance.

Chris

Iueelyen said:

I'm confused by the mash profiles in Beersmith2 so I've been ignoring them and sticking to some written notes I have for Mashing.  I'd like to understand this better...

In case this matters I use the following equipment:
-HLT=15gal Keggle
-Tun=10gal thermos
-Kettle=15gal Keggle

Click to expand...

I'm fond of saying, "Your equipment tells you how to brew beer."

This means that any technique that most efficiently gets you to your target gravity and volume in the boil kettle is how that equipment wants to make beer. This can be an ongoing process of learning for you. Kind of like having a fast car and learning how to get the best performance from it.

I think that giving you some of the theory behind certain techniques would be more helpful than just a list of steps to follow blindly.

Iueelyen said:

Q: the only question I have is about the rate i'm extracting the First runnings.  I normally extract @ about 13min per gallon.  Is this too slow?

Click to expand...

Yes.   You can drain the grain as fast as your mashtun will allow without pulling grain through the manifold. The mash process has already made the first runnings as dense as their going to get.

if you add water to the mash to increase the volume of the first runnings, do it before vourloff, and allow it to mix well with your mash. There are brewers, like myself, that use a very thick mash to increase efficiency, then add water to ease vourloff. 

*aside: I don't directly answer batch sparge questions because it is not a technique I use. There are lots of brewers on this and other forums with first-hand experience I can't provide.

Iueelyen said:

II. Single Infusion seems to involve getting your mash heated within 10 minutes to 168f but I’m clear how to do this. 
-Mash In (1.25quarts X lbs grain) @ 152f for 60min
-Mash out to  168f in 10 minutes
-OK I’m lost here

Q:  So how am I raising the temperature when I have a thermos?  Am I adding a large amount of 200f water?  Or is this normally suited for people with Burner/pot tuns?

Click to expand...

Increasing the temperature naturally means applying heat, somehow. In your setup, adding hot or boiling water is the easiest method. Decoction or pulling first runnings to heat while recirculating are two other options.

Why add heat? The answer is ENZYMES. A mashout simply raises the mash bed temperature to a point where enzyme activity slows greatly, or stops. It is designed to lock your mash profile into place.

Is it needed? In a word, "No." If you never mashout, your beer will be fine. The slight continuation of enzyme activity just becomes a part of that beer's profile. Unless you're working on world class repeatability of your favorite recipe, mashout remains an option.

Mashout has a side benefit of increasing extraction from grain. But this is a moot point if your sparge technique is one that sacrifices efficiency for speed and/or you're in the "malt is cheap" camp and another pound or two is NBD.

Q: After the mash is @ 168 am I fly sparging at that point?

Maybe, maybe not. Batch sparging after a mashout infusion remains an option. However, if you fly sparge, set the outflow to fill your kettle in 60 to 75 minutes. This is sort of a universal design goal of every mash tun size, homebrew to pro. You don't gain much by going slower, except time for another beer.

Iueelyen said:

III. Single infusion no mash out I assume involves fly sparging.  Listed below are the steps I normally take. 
-Mash In (1.25quarts X lbs grain) @ 152f for 60min
-Vorlauf till clear 10-15m
-Fly sparge with 203f at the rate of 12/13 minutes per gallon till you reach your target pre boil volume (roughly an hour to complete).

Q: Did I get the steps correct?

Click to expand...

Almost. Again, this is not automatically a fly sparge scenario. I fly sparge because it is infinitely easier than batch sparging, IMHO. Simply set the outflow during vourloff to the speed needed (7.5 gallon preboil in 60 minutes= @ 2 min/quart) and leave it. Keep the water level at or above grain level (it's ok to have a couple of inches on top). Just one simple valve to monitor. After a couple of batches, finding the sweet spot is second nature.

Your sparge water temperature is very high. Nothing hotter than 170F at the grain bed is required. There can be off flavor consequences to fly sparging too hot.

Q: If I did, I'm confused about the 10 minute mash out.  I'm gradually raising the temp of the mash by fly sparging.  So I don't think I really raise the temperature of the mash to 168/170 within 10 minutes.  Am I OK doing it this way?

No. Mashout is achieved before vourloff and sparge, in any scenario.

Happy Brewing!

Here's a partial answer: read      dennybrew.com

Thanks for the reply(s) ...

I've never batch sparged.  I was going to try it on my next batch just to see if it's easier to hit my numbers.  I know I need to up the grain build at least 10% to make up for some efficiency loss.  Another discussion though 

I've always fly sparged but my numbers were always off when I tried following the steps when I used Beersmith2.  I think it has to do with the preboil volume.  I've always shot for 6.25g/6.50g but beersmith says 7.5.    I fall short on OG when I go to 7.5.  I'm normally always on when I pull off 6.5g (this is post boil SG numbers I'm talking about).  I may just need to increase my grain build slightly to compensate.  As I learn more about the chemistry going on behind the curtain I'll be able to adjust and bounce back easier.  Your info is helpful brewfun.  I feel better about skipping the Mashout now. 

My original my goal for the thread was to figure out (based on my equipment and current workflow) which mash profile I should be assigning to most (not all) of my recipes. 

It sounds like : "Single Infusion No mash out" is what I should start working with. 

My work flow being:
-Mash In (1.25quarts X lbs grain) @ 152f (Med Body) for 60min
-Skip mashout
-Vorlauf till clear 10-15m
-Fly sparge with 168/170f at the rate of 8/9 minutes per gallon(2 min/quart) till you reach your target pre boil volume of 7.5 (roughly an hour to complete).

** I will lower my sparge temp as you suggested.  I originally misunderstood what I was trying to accomplish with the high temperature. 

Hows that look?

The mash profile looks fine.

Regarding preboil volume, I would believe my real world experience over what a computer tells me to do.

Look at your equipment profile. Your batch size should be what you expect to yield to the fermenter. You may have a boil off rate that is higher than what you actually get.

The loss to trub and chiller field should be zero. There is a bug that causes BS to increase your volume and efficiency, rather than lower your predicted preboil gravity.

Yeah I had set "loss to Trub and Chiller" to .75gal.