I threw myself in the deep end as a first time brewer and tried double infusion with all-grain. Foolishly I ran the hop additions over 1 hour in total, concurrently with the mash during protein rest (122F) and sacharification (155F), lautered, and only took the boil kettle to 167F for 10 minutes. Any idea what that would do to the hop flavour profile, and also the consequences of not reaching hot break with the boil? The beer smells great with ferment!
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Hop and mash together
- Thread starter Gordon NJ
- Start date
philm63
Grandmaster Brewer
Can't say I've ever seen this method before, so I don't know where to start. A bit more detail would be helpful for us to get a handle on exactly what was done.
What size batch are we talking about here? What was in the mash (grain bill - types and amount?) Hops - did they all go in the mash with the grains? None went in the kettle? Are you saying you didn't boil the wort - just brought it to 167 F for 10 minutes, then chilled and pitched the yeast?
If the wort was not boiled, then there are a host of issues that far outweigh hop profiles, DMS being just one of them. Tell us what the recipe looked like and the batch size, and maybe a little about your equipment, and let's have another look at this question.
What size batch are we talking about here? What was in the mash (grain bill - types and amount?) Hops - did they all go in the mash with the grains? None went in the kettle? Are you saying you didn't boil the wort - just brought it to 167 F for 10 minutes, then chilled and pitched the yeast?
If the wort was not boiled, then there are a host of issues that far outweigh hop profiles, DMS being just one of them. Tell us what the recipe looked like and the batch size, and maybe a little about your equipment, and let's have another look at this question.
I actually made 3 styles in 10 gallon batches: Pale Ale (35 IBU's), lighter IPA (48 IBU's), and Weiss (22 IBU's). The bill of the first two was around 85% 2-row pale malt with some Crystal 60, the Weiss was about 30% each of Pilsner and wheat malt, 20% flaked barley, and some Munich. All had 30 min at 122F and 150F, mash out then held at 168F for 10 min, then chilled to ferment temp (about 20 min, no longer than 30). Today is exactly 2 weeks since innoculation of the first batch, the other two a couple days after. Fermentation seemed to start well go OK, the first two smell great with some hoppy aromas present. The Weiss has some S compounds noticeable, but not too bad. Think the others are safe from contamination? Might the smells of the Weiss still blow off, 11 days in to ferment?
All my equipment is stainless steel and the batches are fermenting in 50L stainless kegs. I was pretty pedantic about the hygiene and washed everything well and sterilized in a 1% peracetic solution bath. Literally everything that touched the wort.
All my equipment is stainless steel and the batches are fermenting in 50L stainless kegs. I was pretty pedantic about the hygiene and washed everything well and sterilized in a 1% peracetic solution bath. Literally everything that touched the wort.
Scott Ickes
Grandmaster Brewer
I don't see a boil step. The wort out of your mash needs to be boiled for at least an hour.
Good God, man! You've tried something outside the norm! You're liable to sail off the edge of the world!
No, wait, that was Columbus, wasn't it?
Actually there are some wheat beers that are not boiled. Your bittering is not likely to be what you would expect if the hops were boiled, but the hop flavor and aroma could be excellent. Since hop aromas fade over time, you'll need to drink it up quickly, but hardships are to be expected when you venture off the path. The wort should be pasteurized, meaning most of the bacteria will be killed, but a few will have survived. That's another reason to drink it up quickly.
Please let us know how this turns out.
No, wait, that was Columbus, wasn't it?
Actually there are some wheat beers that are not boiled. Your bittering is not likely to be what you would expect if the hops were boiled, but the hop flavor and aroma could be excellent. Since hop aromas fade over time, you'll need to drink it up quickly, but hardships are to be expected when you venture off the path. The wort should be pasteurized, meaning most of the bacteria will be killed, but a few will have survived. That's another reason to drink it up quickly.
Please let us know how this turns out.
Scott Ickes
Grandmaster Brewer
What about the missing hot break and no whirflock or irish moss to remove it? How will that affect the flavor?
Well so much for hop isomerization.... 
....Crazyville Brewing Company..... sounds like a grass bomb to me!
....Crazyville Brewing Company..... sounds like a grass bomb to me!
Scott Ickes
Grandmaster Brewer
Maybe it's not too late. I remember a fellow homebrewer talking about making non-alcohol homebrew for his dad. He takes it to about 170F after fermentation I think and that takes out the alcohol.
I'm wondering if the wort could be put back into a boil pot, with additional water added to make up for boil off. All of the hopping would be going to a bittering addition then. All that would need to be done is add flavor and aroma hops, plus the irish moss near the end of the boil. Additional DME or LME can be added just before the irish moss to get the gravity back up and give the yeast the chance to make beer.
Would this work?
I'm wondering if the wort could be put back into a boil pot, with additional water added to make up for boil off. All of the hopping would be going to a bittering addition then. All that would need to be done is add flavor and aroma hops, plus the irish moss near the end of the boil. Additional DME or LME can be added just before the irish moss to get the gravity back up and give the yeast the chance to make beer.
Would this work?
SharpsRifle
Grandmaster Brewer
Scott Ickes said:
I'm with this plan except I wouldn't add water. I would just let the end volume be what it was. As it is some of the sugars may have been converted to alcohol that will be boiled off. Adding water might make it into bud light.
That and I would use he full hop schedule. You want the bittering, the flavor and the aroma.
So far all you've done is to make wort without the boil or the hops. You can still boil, cool and re pitch the yeast.
Will keep them going as long as they smell OK through the yeast conditioning. Will let you know how the flavour turns out. Not too worried about the excess protein. I'm sure I could just fine them out with bentonite.
I'm not meaning to take shortcuts, but it almost seems that the boil can seem a bit of overkill where you could also lose much of your volatile favourable aromas. Biological stability should be sorted out at lower temperatures with mashing, protein stability could be sorted out with fining (bentonite, etc.), the only questionmarks are the effectivity of hop isomerisation and DMS removal. What do large-scale breweries do? Seems like a hell of a lot energy needed to make the boil?
I'm not meaning to take shortcuts, but it almost seems that the boil can seem a bit of overkill where you could also lose much of your volatile favourable aromas. Biological stability should be sorted out at lower temperatures with mashing, protein stability could be sorted out with fining (bentonite, etc.), the only questionmarks are the effectivity of hop isomerisation and DMS removal. What do large-scale breweries do? Seems like a hell of a lot energy needed to make the boil?
philm63
Grandmaster Brewer
Most large breweries I've seen boil their wort. I'm sure there are some recipes out there that do not call for a boil, but in general, for most beer types, a boil is used. Boiling your wort after the mash accomplishes many things which promote cleaner, better tasting beer with improved stability.
Hop isomerization cannot occur unless the solution in which the hops are immersed is maintained at a minimum temperature for a minimum amount of time. This is where the hop bitterness comes from. True; you could add hop extracts post-boil to get the bitterness in there, but in general; most folks boil the hops to get the bitterness.
Concerning flavor and aroma; hops can be added at various stages of the boil to get differing results - additions with only 30 minutes left in the boil can add significant flavor, and later hop additions can impart both flavor and aroma. Hops added at or near flame-out will contribute mostly aroma.
Preserving specific hop flavor profiles can be accomplished several different ways. You can do a small neutral bittering hop charge at the 60-minute mark in the boil to ensure a clean bitterness, and then another charge of a different flavor and/or aroma hops at 30, 20, 10, 5-minutes, and flame-out while you chill the wort which can give lots of hop flavor and aroma. You could also dry-hop post-fermentation for additional aroma.
You mentioned a concern about the amount of energy to bring the wort to a boil. Do you boil indoors with a stove or other small burner, or do you have the capability to boil outside with a larger gas burner? If a typical kitchen stove is being used, it may be very difficult to bring 7 or 8 gallons to a boil. In this case, I would suggest getting an outdoor gas burner much like would be used with a turkey fryer, I use a Bayou SP-10, for example.
Hop isomerization cannot occur unless the solution in which the hops are immersed is maintained at a minimum temperature for a minimum amount of time. This is where the hop bitterness comes from. True; you could add hop extracts post-boil to get the bitterness in there, but in general; most folks boil the hops to get the bitterness.
Concerning flavor and aroma; hops can be added at various stages of the boil to get differing results - additions with only 30 minutes left in the boil can add significant flavor, and later hop additions can impart both flavor and aroma. Hops added at or near flame-out will contribute mostly aroma.
Preserving specific hop flavor profiles can be accomplished several different ways. You can do a small neutral bittering hop charge at the 60-minute mark in the boil to ensure a clean bitterness, and then another charge of a different flavor and/or aroma hops at 30, 20, 10, 5-minutes, and flame-out while you chill the wort which can give lots of hop flavor and aroma. You could also dry-hop post-fermentation for additional aroma.
You mentioned a concern about the amount of energy to bring the wort to a boil. Do you boil indoors with a stove or other small burner, or do you have the capability to boil outside with a larger gas burner? If a typical kitchen stove is being used, it may be very difficult to bring 7 or 8 gallons to a boil. In this case, I would suggest getting an outdoor gas burner much like would be used with a turkey fryer, I use a Bayou SP-10, for example.
Gordon NJ said:
Large breweries don't carry their wort through a warm room and say "Its done"
They boil it!
My guess is that you don't own John Palmer's book, How to Brew. I would suggest you pick up a copy before you whiz away another dollar on beer ingredients.
brewfun
Grandmaster Brewer
Gordon NJ said:
Interesting. Very bold of you to jump right in with three batches. What you're describing is often given as directions to very refined kit and kilo extract recipes where the extract has been aseptically packaged and a majority of alcohol is created with simple sugars.
How did you arrive at these conclusions? I'm hearing some wine making theory in this method. It seems based in the theory that less treatment of the wort, the better.
Barley is highly problematic for making bread, because of it's protein levels. There is a lot of nitrogen in that protein. That protein is not a big part of what yeast use to ferment. Plus, it has a viscous quality that is unpleasant to drink. Only a minor part of the small molecular weight proteins are required for yeast health. Unused high weight proteins are very easily oxidized, leading to permanent haze, cardboard and other off aromas. I'm skeptical about how effective bentonite will be in that environment.
Pasteurization is good for slowing the progress of foreign flora, but does not eliminate it. Pasteurized, unopened milk still eventually goes sour from lactobacillus. The flora required to sour beer is already abundant on the grain. Not all starches are converted to fermentable sugars, which, along with proteins and even alcohol are food for much of that flora.
In a very high protein environment, yeast have a habit of making poor cell walls. These cell walls will not fully transfer maltose. Instead, favoring only glucose, which is typically 2% of the sugars created in mashing.
Yeast doesn't give a rip about making good beer. It only wants to consume sugar. It's up to the brewer to create and environment where good beer is the outcome. In a competitive environment, yeast put out a huge array of enzymes, fusel alcohols and phenols as a defense. As flavors, few are good.
Boiling does several important things. Among them are these things missed in your process:
>It isomerizes hop alpha acids into STABLE bitterness. This requires high heat and agitation not provided by pasteurization.
>It volatizes unwanted malt aromatics. DMS, as cited is the main one. You have a great experiment going as to how much from particular grains. They will vary, with Pilsner having lots and Munich having not much.
>It creates Hot Break, which is the denaturing and agglomeration of heavy molecular weight proteins along with polyphenols and unconverted starches. This decreases viscosity, turbidity and enhances head retention and shelf life.
>Finally, it fully sterilizes wort from the length of time. This creates an environment that allows yeast to fully focus on the wort.
What do the Pros do? Well, I am one, and I assure you that from the smallest to the very largest, wort boiling is a part of the process.
SharpsRifle
Grandmaster Brewer
You are jumping into something that people have been doing for many thousands of years. The wort has been boiled millions of times for several reasons.
Think of how much trouble it was to boil large amounts of wort in the middle ages or even colonial times.
They boiled it for good reasons.
In addition to the reasons you mentioned let's think about sanitation.
When you mash the wort, you are getting it to great bacteria growth temp but not hot enough to kill any germs.
As for hop utilization, the boil also let's you properly do that.
With the different boil times you are able to get bittering, flavor and aroma from the hops.
Think of how much trouble it was to boil large amounts of wort in the middle ages or even colonial times.
They boiled it for good reasons.
In addition to the reasons you mentioned let's think about sanitation.
When you mash the wort, you are getting it to great bacteria growth temp but not hot enough to kill any germs.
As for hop utilization, the boil also let's you properly do that.
With the different boil times you are able to get bittering, flavor and aroma from the hops.
SharpsRifle said:
+10
Beer is the reason why man still inhabits earth!
There is a great video documentary out there I believe somewhere on YouTube confirming my statement.
Too many brain cells dead to remember the name of it.
Watch it and you will be proud to brew!