High FG and process overview

I've brewed all grain in 20 gallon batches for 5 plus years and am not alone in having some high FG (around 1.02) than consistently hitting something closer to 1.0.  In reading through the forum looking for answers one thing caught my attention that I have not read before.  Over boiling your wort, caramelizing it?  What?  I've never heard that before.  If you boil for 60 minutes how could that be over boiling?  Is there some boil time formula based on gravity or something?  I do a step mash with a protein rest 122, add boiling water to raise the mash to 152, drain off after an hour to make room for another infusion of boiling water to raise the mash to 168 for 10 minutes and then sparge with 168 water for an hour and adding that first runnings back thru the grain bed.  According to your software I hit 80% efficiency.  I do a 5L starter on a stir plate with a couple of smack packs, oxygenate before pitching and don't have a long lag time before fermentation starts.  Good temperature control in a conical fermentor.  Then it is hit and miss as to if I can get FG below 1.02 regardless of SG.  This is regardless of style, yeast type or OG.  Another brewer friend has the same problem with inconsistent FG's.  I don't treat the water as it is very neutral and doesn't need anything.  Always figured I'd mess it up more trying to be a chemist without knowing what to do.  Infusing with boiling water doesn't create some unfermentable sugars?  Don't know how else to raise temps with a false bottom mash tun.
I am a new user of your software coming from a couple different softwares. I am impressed with your product and features.

Salty said:

I've brewed all grain in 20 gallon batches for 5 plus years and am not alone in having some high FG (around 1.02) than consistently hitting something closer to 1.0. 

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Sorry, I'm a little confused by your meaning. Are you saying your FG IS 1.020? Or is 1.020 HIGHER than you expect? And on that note, are you expecting a FG of 1.000?

Over boiling your wort, caramelizing it?  What?  I've never heard that before.  If you boil for 60 minutes how could that be over boiling? 

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Reframe that to think of it as heat applied, not time. Just shy of scorching. Caramelizing (which darkens color) chemically alters sugars into an "unfermentable" structure. But it takes a LOT of darkening to dramatically change final gravity. Unless you're seeing a lot of darkening, this is probably not your issue.

Then it is hit and miss as to if I can get FG below 1.02 regardless of SG.  This is regardless of style, yeast type or OG.

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In this context, 1.020 sounds like an actual gravity.

This is sounding like a nutrient issue. Anything that grows has a "limit nutrient" and perhaps several. Basically, it is the first nutrient depleted, which would cause growth to stop. With yeast, this is most often Zinc and sometimes Nitrogen or Calcium.

Your water should have a minimum of 35ppm calcium, though levels of 70ppm show increased yeast health. Since several brewers are experiencing the same thing, this seems like a possible issue.

Zinc and nitrogen can be added with a little yeast nutrient. Servomyces has both. GoFerm and Fermaid K are also good sources.

As an all grain brewer, your mash pH should be 5.2 to 5.4. This will optimize conversion. A little outside of that range an you may need an extra 30 minutes to convert.  Checking your gravity a few times with a refractometer near the end of the mash and waiting until it stops rising will ensure complete conversion has taken place.

With fully modified grains, a protein rest is not very effective, except that it releases more phosphate, which is good for yeast. For an experiment, try the same recipe, but the ONLY change should be to go directly to the conversion rest. As a WAG, the amount of boiling water needed to go from 122 to 152 *could* denature a portion of your enzymes. Most pale malts have 4x the required enzymes needed for conversion, so it's probably not an issue, but is worth checking. Besides, if you get the same taste and fermentation profile, you know the protein rest isn't really helping.

Lastly, calibrate your thermometers. Make sure they all read correctly and that your 152 isn't actually 158. 

I'd like to get closer to 1.0 than 1.02 for a final gravity regardess of style, don't want that residual sweetness.  You have brought up a possible item with heat applied.  I have a 25 gallon boil pot with a 500,000 btu burner.  That is 240 lbs of liquid to raise from 160 to 208 degrees, my 2000' elevation boil point.  I pour the coals to it once runoff is complete and do see some discolorization on the bottom of the boil pot when cleaning up.  I could take a little longer to boil?  I haven't noticed a color shift though.
I'll try eliminating the protien rest going straight to 152.
I haven't had a problem getting sugars out of the mash.  Another thing I saw in the forum was the higher the mash efficiency the worse the beer was, 70 to 75% being ideal.  I'm over 80%, do I cut the runoff short to limit this?
I'll try adding servomyces at the end of the boil for yeast nutrient I have not done that before.
I have calibrated thermometers using a large test alchol one as the true temp.  Large variation in thermometers perticulary the dial ones.

My initial reaction was the same as Brewfun: fermentation health.  Particularly since you disavow all water treatment.  I think it would be more helpful to give some particulars about a specific beer that exhibited this FG.  Something with an OG in the 1.050 - 1.070 range. 

"Carmelization" is hard to induce at wort concentrations.  Especially  to the degree necessary to impact final gravity.  Most of the time its actually meanoidin formation, and not carmelization.  And the amounts, in either case, are VERY small if you can't taste it.  If you aren't overwhelmed by "toffee" or "meat crust" flavors...I don't think that's it.  However, that said, the scorching that you see in the bottom of your kettle IS indicative of some boil induced flavors, and you may still want to think about ways to minimze that from a flavor perspective.  Thoughts: start heating as soon as you have a few inches of wort in the kettle.  Heat on medium-low to avoid any scorching, but enough so that your wort is close to boiling by the time you are done with the sparge.  This should reduce your desire to "put the spurs to it".  Especially with a 500,000 btu burner. 

Almost everyone should be adding calcium to their water for proper yeast health.  I live in Texas where the ground water bubbles up through limestone, which is basically Calcium Carbonate, and my water doesn't have enough calcium for proper yeast health.  I have hard water with with a high RA.  My water is choc full of all minerals and ions.  If I need to add calcium, I bet that you do too.  Get a water report, and read the water chemistry primer by AJ Delange over on HomeBrewTalk.  He gives a basic recipe for people who don't want to go farther, that will ensure that you are brewing with a decent water.  Its simple, you don't need to be a chemist.

Second: you "say" that you oxygenate.  But, you don't give any specifics.  This means many things to many different people.  How much O2?  At what flow rate?  For how long?  How many times? Do you use pure O2, or air? 

Third: you have "temp control", but what does that mean?  What temp do you keep your starter at?  How long do you let the starter ferment for?  Do you crash and decant or do you pitch the whole thing?  Do you pitch at High Krausen or after all signs of activity have stopped?  What temp do you pitch at?  What profile do you follow DURING fermentation? Do you raise the temp as fermentation progresses?  How much?  When?  Over how long?  What yeast strains are we talking about? 

As you can see there are a LOT of questions to be answered.  Trying to cover them all for all cases is probably impossible.  So, as I said above, I think taking a single representative beer that finished above 1.020 (and shouldn't have) and walking us through your notes would help a lot.

Mash temp can certainly have this affect.  But, I doubt that a boiling WATER infusion would do it.  Then temp spike is too transient.  Decoction mashing doesn't have this effect, and boiling the grain is way more likely than adding boiling water to impact the enzymes of the mash.  I agree with the experiment to eliminate the variable...but, I think something in the fermentation is more likely. 

This 1/5/14 batch was a porter, some specifics;
24 lbs 2 two row
5 lbs Crystal 40
4 lbs Munich
3 lbs British Chocolate
1 lb De-Bittered Black Patent
Strike water of 150 hit the 122 protien rest where it rested 20 minutes
Boiling water infusion to hit 152 Saccharification rest for 60 minutes
ran off 90 percent of wort and added boiling water to raise grain bed to 168 mash out for 10 minutes
Sparged with 168 water for 60 minutes and re-infused that runoff back thru grain bed while sparging  to get 24 gallons pre boil gravity of 1.05
Start applying low heat after 3-4" in boil pot then crank it up when 23 gallons, after hot break foam settles top off to full 24 gallon boil level.
Boil at a mild rolling boil for 60 minutes with three leaf hop additions.
Add Irish moss last ten minutes of boil and circulate thru plate chiller to sanitize.
Shut down heat and start chilling and oxygenate with pure O2 thru a fine stone for a few minutes.
After recirculating brings it down to around 160 degrees then start filling conical with 65 degree wort letting it fall to aerate further.  Post boil gravity was at 1.054 with 21 gallons to the conical.
Wyeast London Ale Yeast 5L starter from two smack packs is at 65 degrees and at full krausen this batch so I pitched the whole thing.
Had bubbles going in 12 hours and held temp at 68 degrees while at high fermentation level then it dropped off to 65 when it slowed down.
Checked gravity  1/10/14 and it was 1.02
Checked it today 1/13/14 and it has come down a little more to 1.015
That is my normal brew process regardless of style.  Had my water tested by Ward Labs with almost nothing showing up in results.  Kinda questioned that?

Three things jump out at me:

1.  I'm pretty sure you are under pitching. Yoursstarter volume is Ok, but your number of packets is low, and by pitching at high krausen you are not getting full growth from the starter. My guess is you are under by half.  I would grow that starter to completion, then decant and then add fresh wort on brewday to get it active. 

2.  You are oxygenating at 160f.  That is a waste. O2 solubility is very low at that temperature.  Oxygenation should be performed at pitching temperature. 

3.  You are shutting the yeast down early by LOWERING the fermentation temp when it is beginning to slow. You should be raising the temp by 1 degree per day as fermentation slows. My general approach is when my gravity has fallen halfway from OG to FG I start raising the temp 1f per day. I keep doing this until fermentation stops completely and my FG stabilizes.

Can you post the actual report data from ward Labs in ppm for calcium, magnesium, sodium, chloride, sulfate, and alkalinity?

1.  Interesting  I was under the impression that a 5 L starter would culture up enough cells to work on a 20 gal batch regardless of number of packets used to get it going.  So you are recommending 4 packets of yeast in a 5L starter, letting it finish, decant and use a little fresh wort prior to pitching to wake it back up.  And I presume the starter is growing more cells and I can't just pitch 4 packs directly? Is this in BeerSmith2 as well, how much yeast is needed for a batch size?  New enough of a used haven't seen it.
2.  I can change that to after cooled.  OK
3.  I can keep a little tighter control on temps.  What would be nice is a jacketed conical like the big boys use.  Controlling it indirectly by room temp is a little more challenging.

I'll get the Ward report to you Friday when I get back home.

Thanks for the pointers and ready to put them into use.

I sent two samples to Ward Labs; one straight from my well and one that had gone through my water softener.
The Well Water                                            Softened Water
pH....7.4                                                      7.6
Total Dissolved Solids....138 ppm                  132 ppm
Sodium,  Na....8 ppm                                    46 ppm
Potassium,  K....2 ppm                                  <1 ppm
Calcium, Ca...20 ppm                                    <1 ppm
Magnesium, Mg...10 ppm                                <1 ppm
Total Hardness, CaCO3....92 ppm                      3 ppm
Nitrate, NO3-N......  0.4 ppm                          0.3 ppm
Sulfate, SO4-S....<1 ppm                              <1 ppm
Chloride, Cl ....<1 ppm                                  <1 ppm
Carbonate, CO3....<1 ppm                            <1 ppm
Bicarbonate, HCO3...134 ppm                        128 ppm
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3.....110 ppm                105 ppm
Fluoride, F.....0.19 ppm                                0.02 ppm
Total Iron, Fe.......0.08 ppm                          0.03 ppm

This batch was with water from the softener not straight from the well.  I have used our local municipal water that is naturally soft and low in iron on occasion with similar results.  Gravity of the batch which has been in the fermentor for two weeks is now 1.012 so it is slowly working lower. 

I'm confused as to why you want to get your FG down close to 1.000 no matter what style of beer you're brewing.  Some of my Belgian Saisons finish near 1.005, while some of my stouts finish around 1.030.  The type of yeast used plays a large role in what your FG will be.  The temperature of your mash plays a large role in what your FG will be.  Many things help determine the FG of a beer, but a one FG fits all approach doesn't make any sense to me.

Some beer styles taste better with a sweeter finish, while some beers taste better with a drier finish.

I've been watching this thread and it seems to me that you're trying to come up with a way to make all of your beers drier, less sweet in taste.  Why?  Some beer styles will just not taste good finishing with a low gravity, while some beer styles won't taste good with a higher FG.

For example, you posted a porter recipe with Munich Malt and Crystal 40.  The Munich Malt profile lists that it adds a Malty Sweet Flavor Characteristic to beer.  The Crystal 40 will also add some sweetness to the flavor profile.  Many brewers that want a drier, less sweet taste will not use these two ingredients or at the very least, cut them back in their grain bill.  The British Chocolate Malt, while not adding a lot of sweetness, will still add to the maltiness of the beer and the chocolate flavor profile will enhance the sweetness of the Munich and Crystal.

I'm confused as to why you feel the need to have some specific FG that you always get under. 

For example, here is the list of my most recent FG's.
1.013
1.015
1.008
1.008
1.016
1.012
1.020
1.012
1.009
1.004
1.016
1.010
1.010
1.020
1.015
1.008
1.007
1.002
1.013

As you can see, some of them are up in the 1.020 range.  Many are low, but they were beer styles that are supposed to be low!  The higher ones are supposed to be higher.  I only had one Nut Brown Ale that finished out of style at 1.020, where as it was supposed to finish at 1.012.  I made the same Nut Brown Ale back to back this year and it finished dead on at 1.012 the second time after finishing at 1.020 the first time.  The 1.020 scored 37 in a brewing competition, where as the 1.012 finished at 25.5 in a brewing competition.  I also blended half of each batch and had a nut brown at 1.016.  I didn't enter that one in any competitions, but it tasted closer to the 1.102 version than it did to the 1.020 version.  The screwed up final gravity beer ended up being the better beer, both by competition scores and by comments from my fellow homebrew friends.

If your hitting the final gravity that BeerSmith predicts, then I don't see the issue.  If you're always way over it, then I do see an issue.

Help us understand better.  Are you always high on your FG, compared to what BeerSmith predicts?  Or...    Are you seeking to bring the FG down below what BeerSmith predicts?

I guess I need to clarify my concern of not getting closer to 1.00 FG.  You are correct that getting to 1.0 would be a very dry beer. I'm not trying to get there with every batch but simply trying to get lower than 1.02 more consistently.  Your list of FG is interesting with the large variation, and there are 7 below 1.01.  Maybe I'm just too focused on getting as low as possible.

My suggestion is to get focused on what FG will make your beer taste the best.  Use the proper grains, hops, water, yeast and process to achieve the taste that you want.  If a particular beer tastes best at 1.020, then make it at 1.020.  Yes, you could pitch a Belle Saison yeast into a Stout grain bill with a low mash temperature and get it down below 1.010, but it wouldn't taste very good (well, at least I don't think it would).

Salty said:

This batch was with water from the softener not straight from the well. 

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There's your problem. Sodium is toxic to yeast.

The well water could use additions of Calcium Chloride and Calcium Sulfate (gypsum) to get your Calcium up to the 50 to 70 ppm range..

The well water looks pretty soft, as is. I'd love to make a lager with that stuff. Why do you use a softener? The iron doesn't look too bad, but can be reduced simply by aerating it with pure O2. That oxidizes the iron and causes it to become insoluble. You can simply rack off the clean water to brew with.

If the issue is sulfur or inorganics, then a charcoal filter should do the trick.

We use a softener to clear the iron as much as anything.  Without it whites turn gray and rust stains fixtures.  It would be a fairly easy process to oxygenate and drop the iron out prior to brewing.


So 46 ppm is enough to effect the yeast? If I need to simply gypsum up to 50-70 ppm how do I know how much to add?  Is that in Beersmith?
I appreciate all your suggestions and will put them to use.  I have a thermowell and two stage Rancor  stat on order for my fermentor temp control

Salty said:

We use a softener to clear the iron as much as anything.  Without it whites turn gray and rust stains fixtures.  It would be a fairly easy process to oxygenate and drop the iron out prior to brewing.

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That's what I was figuring.

So 46 ppm is enough to effect the yeast? If I need to simply gypsum up to 50-70 ppm how do I know how much to add?  Is that in Beersmith?

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Not as a rule. I have 45 to 70 ppm of naturally occurring sodium in my water and some "classic" cities have more. But, the stripping of the other minerals is problematic, leaving yeast with little defense against the sodium. My water also has 80 to 150 ppm calcium, along with large amounts of sulfate, carbonate and other good stuff for both mash and yeast.

The important thing is to balance the yeast needs with the alkalinity issues of mashing. Minerals alone don't do all the work. Sometimes a little yeast nutrient can make all the difference. The book How to Brew does a great job of explaining water and yeast health.

BeerSmith has a water calculation tool. But, as Tom Hampton will quickly point out, it's clunky and has limitations. I don't use the BeerSmith water tool, I use a spreadsheet called Bru'n Water. It's a little more complex, but also flexible once you get the hang of it. It comes in both a free and "paid" version.