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Beersmith 3 - Steep/Whirlpool bitterness factor setting missing?

Mothman

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I just updated to BS3, and imported my info from BS2.

I noticed an existing recipe showed IBU's way higher than BS2 did... and thought maybe it's because in in BS2 I had reduced the whirlpool bitterness factor as I cool the wort down somewhat first.

I notice in the BS3 Options page, there is still the comment about the Steep/Whirlpool factor... but there is no actual setting field for it.
 

Oginme

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I had also reduced the whirlpool hop utilization down to around 30% from the original default of 50%.  I could swear that I reset it when I transferred my recipes from BS2 and had to go through and change a number of the defaults to reflect my process values.  I do not see it in this latest version.  Also check in your equipment profile if the 'estimate boil hop util in whirlpool' is checked.  I had better correlation to my sensory perception of IBU when I had this unchecked.  But that was on MY process... YMMV.
 

BeerSmith

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The new version calculates the utilization for whirlpool based on your whirlpool temperatures for each hop addition, so if you adjust the whirlpool temp down for the hop additions you should be able to match it. 

Brad
 

Mothman

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Thanks, it was the Whirlpool temperature setting in the recipe additions that I was missing. :)

And Oginme, thanks for the tip on the equipment profile.  Mine is currently unchecked... I'm not sure if thats how I want it but now I at least know that setting is there. :)
 

Jppsav

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BeerSmith said:
The new version calculates the utilization for whirlpool based on your whirlpool temperatures for each hop addition, so if you adjust the whirlpool temp down for the hop additions you should be able to match it. 

Brad

I am assuming the average whirlpool temp for each addition only reflects a set amount of time, say 10 minutes or so, and not the total time/temp that they are in the whirlpool/stand. Say I add hops at flameout and whirlpool for 10 minutes and the average temp of the 10 minutes is 185. At the end of the first 10 minutes the temp is 160. Now I add my second hops at 160 while cooling to 100 for 10 minutes, my average temp for this 10 minutes is 130. Now I add my third addition and steep for 20 minutes at 100 before rapid chilling to fermentation temp. That is how I enter the additions into BS. I am not concerned how the temp of the later whirlpool additions effect the earlier additions, correct?

John
 

Oginme

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So, the way the model works is that it estimates utilization over the whole steep time at that temperature.  Each addition is treated independently.

For instance, when I set my steep temperature for 45 minutes at 195F the program gives me an IBU value for that addition of 8.5 IBU.  When I decrease the time down to 35 minutes, the IBU calculation is 7.7 IBU. 

When I then change a subsequent whirlpool addition for 10 minutes at 170F to 15 minutes, only that IBU calculation changes.  All other whirlpool hop contributions stay the same.

Given this, I have changed my recipes as follows:  I enter in the whirlpool hops as I would like them to be added based upon timing.  I know the temperature related to that timing based upon previous recordings of temperature over time with cooling of my pot to ambient conditions (I brew indoors, so it makes it easier to track).  I assign the temperatures according to my previous work to obtain the estimated IBU which corresponds to my perception of bitterness with that addition.  On brew day, I record the actual temperatures which the hops were added to ensure that my cooling curve is still valid. 

With the removal of the ability to assign a % utilization correction figure directly to whirlpool hop IBU calculations, I must use the temperature as the utilization rate for each addition and not as the designated temperature of the actual addition.  Since my process is conditional on the timing of additions and not the temperature, this works for me quite well.  I still miss the universal utilization feature, but I can make it work.

 

Jppsav

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Just trying to be clear and understand how the calculations are being made.
If you are just tossing hops in at flameout and transfer to fermenter at 70 after a 60 min whirlpool, the average temp should be more like 140 given a linear drop in temp shouldn?t it?
 

Oginme

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You are thinking too logically.

First, the software has no idea of how long it takes you to drop in temperature from boiling to whatever endpoint you select.  There actually used to be a single data point within the software in your equipment profile where you can state the time it takes to drop in temperature from flame out to 85C (185F) in BeerSmith 2.  This no longer exists in BS3. 

Second, I don't know the exact formulation Brad used for the calculation of whirlpool hop contribution to IBU, but there are several papers out there on IBU contribution from whirlpool hopping which have been performed on commercial systems.  Knowing that Brad usually keeps up on these studies, I am figuring that he drew the calculations from these studies to estimate the IBUs for whirlpool additions. 

Third, even if you could estimate based upon average temperature this would not suit some of the commercial brewers nor those people brewing on equipment which allows for temperature control (such as the Grainfather or Robobrew systems) of the whirlpool at a given temperature.

So since I was not very clear in my first response, let me try again.  Ignore the actual temperature settings and use the temperature setting for each whirlpool addition to define the utilization from your sensory response.  In doing this you will use the timing of additions for actual hop adds, but the temperature of that addition will define what you think you should get for IBU from that addition and not the actual temperature of your system when you add the hops.

Since I have been doing whirlpool additions for 4 years now and have scoped out what I think is the bitterness response from pure whirlpool additions, I have been able to (for my process and system only) correlate that bitterness perception to a temperature setting which gives me an estimate of the bitterness I expect from a given whirlpool hopping.
 

BOB357

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Oginme has given some great advice here. One thing that I might add is, a thousand brewers may brew on a thousand systems that have some differences. Among those brewers/systems the thousand brewers may have another unknown number of differences in the totality of their techniques. The following is not directed to the OP, but to the many who want software to take care of everything in their lives. That people is an ability that the good Lord gave each of us.

Beersmith does a better job than any brewing software I have ever seen in giving you the ability to customize recipes to suit your equipment, techniques and taste preferences. Brad supports you with a ton of posts and videos. If that isn't enough, there are many more on youtube. If you want software that brews the beer for you, good luck. Do a little work setting up profiles that match your equipment and techniques. you will be rewarded.  If you don't spend the time or just don't get it, just buy your favorite beer at your favorite store.
 

GigaFemto

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I understand that Google has progressed beyond self-driving cars and is now working on self-brewing beer, but it is only in test mode now.  ;D

--GF
 

Jppsav

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There are so many opinions of what Brad had in mind with whirlpool additions that I was trying to get clear idea of his intent. I have brewed a cloned NEIPA recipe that was published by the brewer with good results, however my sensory says my version is a little more bitter. For that brew I entered the average temp of the 10 minute window between additions in an attempt to match the average to the average entered into BS to come close to the calculated IBU. To do that I tossed them at a higher temp than I normally would have. When I go back to how I have treated my additions in the past and set the temp to the actual temp at time of additions which was 194, 170, and 150 for this recipe, my calculated IBU in BS are close to the published recipe. When I set the temp to the average of the 10 minute window between additions my IBU calculation drops considerably. That is the reason I tossed at a higher temp than normal last time.
I believe the first 10 minutes of addition are the most important as long as you are steadily dropping temp. I hope to learn more on the next brew.
I think the average temp verbiage throws people off because of the unknown time of the average and when 100% of bittering hops are in the whirlpool it makes quite a difference when designing your own recipe.
 

moncini

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ok now i want to know if i have understood the new process: Each hop now has the possibility to be customized if i add hop during the whirlpool. ie: my flame out 10  + whirlpool 20  +knokout 10 last 40 minutes. if i add hops before whirlpool i must add steep time 30 and as temp the temp when i add hop. is it right? but must i add it also to all the hops of the recipe? is during boiling time i add hop at 5 in the field steep time must i add also the steep time (40m)?

thanks in advance for the help

Max
 

Oginme

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OK, so using your example you have:

Flame out hops,
10 minute steep
1st whirlpool hop addition
20 minute steep
2nd whirlpool hop addition (knockout?)
10 minute steep

I am assuming (for right or wrong) that you do not remove the hops (as in a hop bag) from one step to another.

So, your first flame out hops should be added as whirlpool hops for a total of 40 minutes (10 +20 +10 minutes for total steeping time)
Your second whirlpool hops will be added for 30 minutes (40 minutes minus the 10 minutes for the first addition)
Your third addition would be added for 10 minutes (40 minutes minus the 30 minutes which have already passed)

For temperatures, I would start with using the temperatures that you measure (if you have done so previously), or set if you have a HERMS system, or estimate from a reasonable idea of the temperature drop during the period of time from flame out to chilling.  You can later go back and adjust the temperatures to correlate your sensory evaluation of bitterness to the calculated IBU number to bring them into alignment with your experiences.

For those hops which are added prior to turning the heat off, there is a setting in your equipment profile for 'estimate boil hop util in whirlpool' which you can check and then enter the full time of the whirlpool in the 'total whirlpool time' above that setting.  This will extend the estimate of bittering realized from your boil hop additions for the added time of the whirlpool.

Just to throw another possibility at you, I had to stop the timer between flame out and first whirlpool hop addition due to the time it took me to grab volume and gravity sample.  It would take me about 5 minutes from end of boil until I threw in my first hops.  Later, I extended that to around 10 minutes for the addition of my immersion chiller and time to cool the wort to around 195F.

So, I made a 'dummy hop' called 'whirlpool pause' which contributes zero IBU.  I add this in with the full timing from flame out to end of whirlpool.

So for instance, if you flame out hops above actually was added at 10 minutes after the end of the boil, I would add the 'whirlpool pause' for 50 minutes (10 minute pause + 40 minutes total time from above).  This sets the timer in BeerSmith to give me the proper time to the first whirlpool addition without having to fuss around pausing the timer.

Hope this helps!
 

bravow

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I understand the whirlpool hopping utilization calc logic at the recipe level. My question has to do with utilization calcs in BS3 for boil additions (non-whirlpool) when using an Equipment Profile that has the "Estimate Boil Hop Utilization in Whirlpool" box checked. This profile area has a setting for whirlpool time, but not temperature. If you select a profile with this box checked for a recipe, BS3 seems to calculate boil hop (non-whirlpool) utilization by adding this whirlpool profile time to the boil time @ 212 degrees, irrespective of temps set for any whirlpool hop additions - or even if you have no whirlpool hop additions.
I do not see the purpose of this checking this box under the Equipment Profile, unless you always do your whirlpool for the profile time at boiling temp BEFORE doing any whirlpool hopping at lower temps. Any whirlpool hops and their associated times are NOT reflected in additional utilization for boil hops. Am I missing something?
 

Oginme

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I think you have the jist of the whirlpool hopping and the extension of boil hop utilization into the whirlpool. 

As you can kind of figure out from my previous posts, I have come to put very little stock in the IBU calculations and numbers; much more preferring to use my testing and experience to guide me on the level of bitterness I am targeting.

My equipment profile is set not to calculate the boil hop utilization into the whirlpool, as I really feel this is more appropriate for 'no chill' brewers who need to track their late boil additions over a longer period of time at higher temperatures than I usually work with in a 20 to 40 minute whirlpool time.

Since I do not actually measure my IBU to compare to calculated values, the use of the IBU calculations is more of a guidepost than an estimate of an actual value.

 
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