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Unable To Change Total Volume

Killswitch

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Hello!
I am trying to get into adding salts to the spring water I have but I am unable to get an accurate water volume on my profile. I added water to the design of the total amount of water needed for 6.9 gal (5.9 mash and 1 gal sparge). After the recipe is complete I go to the Water tab and chose a "Match a Target Profile" for Amber Balanced. I then notice at the top the Total Volume is 7.63. How to I change that to 6.9 to get the accurate salt mesurement?

Thank you!
 

BeerSmith

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I usually adjust water as the very last thing before brewing since simple things like changing the grains a bit will change the water amount.

What you want to do is after you have the rest of the recipe complete, go to the water tab and add a base water profile (ideally the profile for your tap water) as a water ingredient to the recipe - and make that equal to the total water.

Next adjust the water salts as needed to match your target profile. Then finally go to the mash tab and adjust the pH if needed as that depends on the water profile used.
 

Killswitch

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I usually adjust water as the very last thing before brewing since simple things like changing the grains a bit will change the water amount.

What you want to do is after you have the rest of the recipe complete, go to the water tab and add a base water profile (ideally the profile for your tap water) as a water ingredient to the recipe - and make that equal to the total water.

Next adjust the water salts as needed to match your target profile. Then finally go to the mash tab and adjust the pH if needed as that depends on the water profile used.
That doesn't work for me. Everything's good to go on the design. I got to water and the total volume is showing 8.04 gal. I put in the profile from the grocery store's spring water profile I made and made the amount. 6.9 gal and it didn't change the total volume. I put in the target profile and the Water Ingred Vol is showing 6.9 but not the total volume. So I feel like the salts are going to be off since the total volume is over 2 gal more than what I'm actually using. So frustrating.
 

Oginme

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The total water is showing 8.04 gallons because that is what is called for based upon your equipment profile, grain bill, and target volume into the fermentor. Why do you want to have the water total be 6.9 gallons?

If you have customized your equipment profile to have the volumes of your losses (mash tun loss, boil off rate, trub) and set the grain absorption based upon your typical values, then the total volume calculated by the program should be close. Should you be using stock profiles, I would highly recommend you focus on this step first. Getting the volume prediction correct will go a long way to making sure your water agents will get you to your desired target values.
 

Killswitch

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Appreciate the response. I use the Anvil all in one brew system. The documentation says with 11lbs of grain, the total would be 6.9 total water 120v (shows 5.9 but I believe it's a typo). My equipment profile is set to the ANVIL Foundry 10.5.


I have been using this calculation and everything seems to work out fine. I just want to take that next step into the water salts to get the right mouth feel for the brews.
 

Oginme

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I developed the profile used for the Anvil 6.5 gal unit. You can follow my process for determining the settings in the equipment profile starting on this thread: https://beersmith.com/forum/index.p...r-the-anvil-6-5g-brewing-system-part-1.20873/

Taking the stock profile for the Anvil gives you a good starting point. You have a couple of settings which you need to look at to adjust the profile to where it better represents your system. Chances are good that the profile is set for the 240V boil off rate, which would give you an additional loss and therefore bump the required water volume. This may be the biggest change needed, but you will also want to determine how much trub loss you want going into the fermenter. I go through how I measured the volume left in the Anvil in my series referenced above, but this is a good place to look to see if that is also contributing to the additional volume.

Taking good measurements (you will note that I started by making my own measuring stick and those readings varied from the engravings in the Anvil) to make sure I was taking accurate volume readings is important to calculating repeatable numbers from the software,

Also note that the volumes from the software will be given as 'hot' wort or water, so the thermal expansion coefficient for the temperature is applied to them. This would also account for around 4% greater volume in the total water needed from what Anvil publishes in their guide. Realize also that the Anvil guide is just a recommendation which will work for the greater number of people. Individual results will vary.
 

Killswitch

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I figured it wasn't spot on but also wasn't something that was very noticeable in efficiency. The profile says for 240v operation increase boiloff rate to 1gal/hr so It looks like it's the 120v. It's just crazy to me that there's a 2 gallon difference. Also weird I can't manually change the total water volume to match what i'm actually using. I basically have to use another 3rd party calculator to get accurate salt additions. The trub at the bottom after the transfer is negligible.
 

BOB357

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You can change the total water volume but, as Oginme alludes to, it's a function of your equipment profile so that's where you need to make needed adjustments. If the values you enter there are accurate, your total volume will be very close. Understand that BeerSmith starts with volume into the fermenter and works backwards from there, relying primarily on your inputs as they apply to losses along the way. The results will be as accurate as your inputs. See note below:

Here's a link to the best video I've seen on how to set up your equipment profile:
https://brulosophy.com/2014/08/04/beersmith-tutorial-equipment-profile-setup/
This should be done before entering your first recipe into BeerSmith. You may need to make some minor adjustments once you've brewed a few batches but without a fairly accurate start, you're wasting your time. Tens of thousands of people use BeerSmith with great success. Those who are not successful aren't using it properly.

Note: Don't trust the volume markings on your Anvil, or any other equipment unless you've verified their accuracy. Most are off and often by a lot.
 

Oginme

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I figured it wasn't spot on but also wasn't something that was very noticeable in efficiency. The profile says for 240v operation increase boiloff rate to 1gal/hr so It looks like it's the 120v. It's just crazy to me that there's a 2 gallon difference. Also weird I can't manually change the total water volume to match what i'm actually using. I basically have to use another 3rd party calculator to get accurate salt additions. The trub at the bottom after the transfer is negligible.
The software is a mathematical modeling of the brewing process. It is designed to calculate the volume targets based upon the grain bill and specific profiles you use in the recipe. It is one of the main purposes of using brewing software. Once you get the profile mimicking your actual results, you will come to rely upon the targets it gives you and trust that the water volumes it calls for will be almost exactly what you need.

I have over 280 brews in BeerSmith and regularly brew 10 liter batches. I am seldom more than 20 or 30 ml from my predicted ending volume and when I am off by more it is because I made an error, spilled some wort, or deliberately changed the boil time.
 

Killswitch

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The software is a mathematical modeling of the brewing process. It is designed to calculate the volume targets based upon the grain bill and specific profiles you use in the recipe. It is one of the main purposes of using brewing software. Once you get the profile mimicking your actual results, you will come to rely upon the targets it gives you and trust that the water volumes it calls for will be almost exactly what you need.

I have over 280 brews in BeerSmith and regularly brew 10 liter batches. I am seldom more than 20 or 30 ml from my predicted ending volume and when I am off by more it is because I made an error, spilled some wort, or deliberately changed the boil time.
I just realized the profile is for the no sparge method. I use the sparge method. Weird bs3 doesn't have that profile by now. I'm not nearly experienced enough (obviously) to update that profile.
 

Killswitch

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So the question would be; Where in the equipment profile do I add the .3 gal loss to sparging (since the documentation is a .3 difference between no sparge and sparge? Mash Deadspace Losses?
There's 1 gal of sparge water and it looks like right now, it's calculating non sparge still since it's now showing 7.87 total volume. -1 gal 6.87 would be spot on. Just need to figure out how to incorporate the sparge to the profile.
 
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Killswitch

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You can change the total water volume but, as Oginme alludes to, it's a function of your equipment profile so that's where you need to make needed adjustments. If the values you enter there are accurate, your total volume will be very close. Understand that BeerSmith starts with volume into the fermenter and works backwards from there, relying primarily on your inputs as they apply to losses along the way. The results will be as accurate as your inputs. See note below:

Here's a link to the best video I've seen on how to set up your equipment profile:
https://brulosophy.com/2014/08/04/beersmith-tutorial-equipment-profile-setup/
This should be done before entering your first recipe into BeerSmith. You may need to make some minor adjustments once you've brewed a few batches but without a fairly accurate start, you're wasting your time. Tens of thousands of people use BeerSmith with great success. Those who are not successful aren't using it properly.

Note: Don't trust the volume markings on your Anvil, or any other equipment unless you've verified their accuracy. Most are off and often by a lot.
It's a good video. I'll need to dig deeper or find some kind soul in a discord to go over how to set up the sparging Anvil profile. I'm not looking to be 100% accurate grandmaster brewer. Just closer than 2 gal off. Learning along the way.
 

Killswitch

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Or I just won't sparge. Better option. Funny enough though, the salt additions have you adding salts to the sparge. I'm taking crazy pills.
 

BeerSmith

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Or I just won't sparge. Better option. Funny enough though, the salt additions have you adding salts to the sparge. I'm taking crazy pills.
If you use a BIAB mash profile in your recipe it won't have a sparge - just one step with one set of salt additions. That's because a traditional BIAB is done with all the water in the mash.
 

Killswitch

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If you use a BIAB mash profile in your recipe it won't have a sparge - just one step with one set of salt additions. That's because a traditional BIAB is done with all the water in the mash.
I did see that in the documentation you linked. I was just poking around trying to find the mash profile on my recipe.
Unless you mean equipment? The BIAB - Standard 5 gal? I would imagine that would want to mess with the all in one system for total water and circle me back to the initial issue.
 
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BOB357

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In the mash profiles, you select BIAB is for no sparge. Leaving all of the boxes unchecked is what you want if you're doing any type of fly sparge, including the typical pour-over method used with all-in-one systems. Be aware that efficiency can vary considerably depending on the sparge volume and rate of flow through the grains. Unless you have a reasonable volume to sparge with, no sparge can improve efficiency.

Salt additions to the sparge, or optionally to the boil, aren't uncommon. Though not necessary, they help maintain the water profile, which can have an impact on some styles more than others.
 

CascadesBrewer

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I just realized the profile is for the no sparge method. I use the sparge method. Weird bs3 doesn't have that profile by now. I'm not nearly experienced enough (obviously) to update that profile.
I agree that the interface is a bit confusing for those doing BIAB with a sparge (which is very common). Like mentioned, if I am doing a sparge with my BIAB process, I have to uncheck the BIAB option. I recall playing with the different sparge options and I think for me the best options were to check both 'Batch Sparge' and 'Drain Tun Before Sparge' options. I forget what worked for the 'Use Equal Batches' option.

I am mostly replying to note that you might have to tweak the Grain Absorption setting in the Advanced Options. There are two values there. One is for BIAB and is only used when the BIAB option is selected. If you uncheck BIAB, then the other value is used. In my case, I set both values to the same value.
 
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