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flaked grains & conversion

haerbob3

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Hey guys.  I am trying to help somebody that is having an issue.  The question is are there enough enzymes in the wort from the first running to a conversion on flaked rye if said rye was steeprd in the wort? 
 
where is john palmer when you need him. you have an interesting ? there. if there are enough in the first running's  to convert flaked rye by its self, then it opens up the ? about ph, temp, and time. I think there is enough there but ph and time to convert, I do not have a clue. 
 
Thanks!! The guy with the question is over at the BeerBorg.  At one time it was common practice to re-mash the grains a couple of times and ferment the runnings
 
I'm fairly certain the answer is yes assuming you did not do a mashout. The vast majority of the enzymes are in the liquid portion of the mash (the wort). This is why you can boil the thick part of a mash in a decoction and still have plenty of enzymes left for the rest of the conversion.

However, my question is why? why not just put the flaked adjuncts in the mash? you can add rice hulls to prevent sticking.
 
no room in the MLT.  His results show differently.  The Gravity Points he is missing is exactly what he would have gotten had he mashed the flakes,  At 9 points this is not a simple mistake.

"This recipe was 10# British 2 Row, 3# rye malt, 1# Carapils, 1.5# flaked rye, which I steeped, but figured it into the efficiency because I steeped in 1st runoff, 150* for 30 minutes"
 
30 minutes might well not have been enough time. also, how did he steep? they need room to have lot's of contact with enzyme laden wort. it's hard to say if that's what happened though without knowing for sure if his first runnings were on target for efficiency without the flaked grain. could have just been 9 points low.

A better option in the case of a too small tun would have been to mash thicker and do more sparge steps. or, as you alluded to, double mash.

On the double mash thing, yeah, you can do that as well, drain the tun to a kettle, reheat to strike temps. meanwhile clean the tun out and then strike in again with a new set of grains but using the wort as strike water. in that case you would need more diastatic malts added though.
 
haerbob3 said:
Thanks!! The guy with the question is over at the BeerBorg.  At one time it was common practice to re-mash the grains a couple of times and ferment the runnings

Actually, that is Parti Gyle. The second and third runnings weren't actually doing much mashing. More like an old timey version of batch sparging, with an hour long stand time to make three different beers. Really old texts talk about boiling the grain in each phase.
 
haerbob3 said:
no room in the MLT.  His results show differently.  The Gravity Points he is missing is exactly what he would have gotten had he mashed the flakes,  At 9 points this is not a simple mistake.

An alternative to this would be to boil the flaked grain in a portion of the strike water, then strain to use that as part of the infusion. The boiling would hydrolize starch and glucans, making them available for mash conversion without the grain volume.

I can't say how effective first runnings would be for conversion. The enzyme action changes with extended contact. Beta Amylase has a half life of 20 minutes over 150F. Plus, once sugar saturation approaches 26 Plato, it gets difficult to diffuse more into solution. I suppose it's worth a try, though.
 
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