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Mash Tun question

OzarkBrewer

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I chose the recipe Hoppy-Go-Lucky Wheat IPA (batch 2) from the cloud.  I decided this time, (my second ever all-grain batch,) that I would add the water to the mash Tun first, then the grain.

Here's what I did:  The recipe says, "Mash In -  Add 18.25 qt of water at 162.6 F  - 150.0 F  for 90 min

So I got that much water heated to 162 F and let it run into my Coleman cooler which as far as size, can do as much as a 15 gal. batch.  The cooler was at 68 F and so was the grain.  When the water dropped to 150.0 F I added the grain, 11 lb, 8 OZ.

Here's where the problem started and this is the basis of my "Mash Tun Question"

My grain bed dropped to 142 F  I didn't know what to do so I heated up 4 Gal. of water to 168 F, which I assumed is the Sparge water as the recipe states and calls for and I added this to the Mash Tun but it didn't bring the temp. up to 150 F.  It remained right around 144 F for the remainder of the 90 min.  ???

I did check the Gravity at first running and it said it was at 1.064 which is at the recipe design but the wort was 146 F at that time so I know that wasn't a correct Hydrometer reading right?

So my question is what did I do wrong?  What do I need to do differently next time?  I was worried about conversion at this point.  Once I filled the keggle to the desired pre-boil volume for boil, I checked the gravity of the hot wort again, it showed to be around 1.022.

Am I going to make "drinkable" beer?  Is it going to be weak beer or did I some how luck out here?  Not sure where I went wrong on the Mash.

Any pointers or clarity would be appreciated. 

 
BS calculates the temperature needed of the strike water based on grain temperature and, optionally, equipment temperature. Since your grain and equipment are almost always (I would hope always, unless you live in a volcano) going to be at a lower temperature than your desired mash temperature, your strike water should be some amount higher. When you strike with whatever temperature water BS tells you, you add your grain at that time; the temperature of the grain will lower the water temperature, and some of this will go into heating up the mash tun as well (if you've selected this option). By waiting until the water was at your desired mash temperature... well, I'm sure you can figure out the result from there.

Your first runnings gravity, adjusted for temperature, is 1.083. I'd assume you got conversion. 1.022 seems quite a bit low for a pre-boil gravity; what was the temperature? What was your post-boil OG?
 
You needed to put your water into your mash tun at a higher temperature than 162F.  For example, if BeerSmith tells me to strike at 162F, I'll put my water into my mash tun at about 170F.  It will probably drop to about 164F or 165F.  Stir the water until the temperature drops to your strike temperature of 162F and then add your grains.  You'll then settle at your 150F mash in temperature.

Another way is to understand the specific heat properties of your mash tun really well.  If you know exactly how much heat will be taking out of your strike water by the 68F mash tun, then you can strike it right away and add your grains.

Since your cooler will be at different ambient temperatures from one day to the next, it requires that you really understand your mash tuns specific heat really well.

I prefer to take the mash tun temperature out of the equation, but not allowing my equipment profile to use the specific heat calculations for my mash tun.  I just put the water in hotter and wait the 5 minutes or so for it to drop to strike temperature.

I am always within 1F of my mash in temperature.
 
cmbrougham said:
BS calculates the temperature needed of the strike water based on grain temperature and, optionally, equipment temperature. Since your grain and equipment are almost always (I would hope always, unless you live in a volcano) going to be at a lower temperature than your desired mash temperature, your strike water should be some amount higher. When you strike with whatever temperature water BS tells you, you add your grain at that time; the temperature of the grain will lower the water temperature, and some of this will go into heating up the mash tun as well (if you've selected this option). By waiting until the water was at your desired mash temperature... well, I'm sure you can figure out the result from there.

Your first runnings gravity, adjusted for temperature, is 1.083. I'd assume you got conversion. 1.022 seems quite a bit low for a pre-boil gravity; what was the temperature? What was your post-boil OG?
Thank you that makes sense.  I wanted to add the grain at strike of 162 F but was afraid it would have a bad effect on the grain but not next time.  Also, I was incorrect with my #'s.  Pre boil I wrote down 1.048 and I should have said post was at 1.022
 
Scott Ickes said:
You needed to put your water into your mash tun at a higher temperature than 162F.  For example, if BeerSmith tells me to strike at 162F, I'll put my water into my mash tun at about 170F.  It will probably drop to about 164F or 165F.  Stir the water until the temperature drops to your strike temperature of 162F and then add your grains.  You'll then settle at your 150F mash in temperature.

Another way is to understand the specific heat properties of your mash tun really well.  If you know exactly how much heat will be taking out of your strike water by the 68F mash tun, then you can strike it right away and add your grains.

Since your cooler will be at different ambient temperatures from one day to the next, it requires that you really understand your mash tuns specific heat really well.

I prefer to take the mash tun temperature out of the equation, but not allowing my equipment profile to use the specific heat calculations for my mash tun.  I just put the water in hotter and wait the 5 minutes or so for it to drop to strike temperature.

I am always within 1F of my mash in temperature.

Thanks Scott.  I must get this figured out before I brew the "collaboration Porter" lol!  This makes perfect sense now.  Is there an easy way to "not allow equip. profile to use the specific heat calculation for my mash tun"?

Since I now know that 162 F water will loose approx. 20 F within  a minute of adding 68 F grain, that's quite the learning curve but hey...that's what we're here for and learning from you and others makes me feel better about the whole process!
 
OzarkBrewer said:
Scott Ickes said:
Thanks Scott.  I must get this figured out before I brew the "collaboration Porter" lol!  This makes perfect sense now.  Is there an easy way to "not allow equip. profile to use the specific heat calculation for my mash tun"?

Since I now know that 162 F water will loose approx. 20 F within  a minute of adding 68 F grain, that's quite the learning curve but hey...that's what we're here for and learning from you and others makes me feel better about the whole process!

Actually, you didn't lose 20F from the grains.  The 68F mash tun took a lot of the heat, before you ever put the grain in.  The grain took the rest of the heat.

When you open up your recipe, click on the mash tab.  You'll see a check box that says, "Adjust Temp For Equip".  If you check the box, it raises your strike water temp up to account for the heat that you'll lose to your cold mash tun.  If you leave the box unchecked (which is what I do), then you just put your strike water in about 6F to 8F higher than the strike temp that you're aiming for.  The mash tun will cool down your strike water about 4F to 6F degrees.  Less on warmer days, and more on hotter days. 

To do it the way that I do it:
Just make sure that once put your strike water in the mash tun that the temperature is equal by stirring and is slightly above your intended strike temperature once it's equalized.  Continue stirring to help dissipate some heat from your strike water, until it hits your target temperature.  Then add your grains, stirring well, while making sure to break up all dough balls.  Once your mash is thoroughly stirred, with no dough balls, it should be at your mash temperature.

Also, there is a tab called "Tools" at the top.  In that tab is a tool called "Mash Adjust".  You can use that to put in your grain temp, so that you know exactly what strike temp you need. 

In the Mash Tab of your recipe, the grain temp and the Mash Tun temp default to 72F.  You could change those, instead of using the "Mash Adjust" tool.

I hope this was helpful.
 
I hope this was helpful.
[/quote]

This was VERY helpful thank you.  I have one more question.  Is there a setting in B.S. or a way to calculated "amount of time",  that we should strive to be at for draining the mash tun into the boiler?  Is it determined by "per batch size" or "per recipe style" or "amount of grain or type of grain used"?
 
It is determined by sparge method.  As I don't fly sparge, I can't give you a qualified answer for fly sparging.  Only that it needs to be slow.  For batch sparging (which is what I do), I lauter and drain.  When I say lauter, I probably over lauter, but you can't lauter too much.  I just make sure that my wort is as clear as possible going into my boil pot.  I don't want to boil any grains, as this will cause astrigency.  Once I've lautered to the point of clear wort, I open the valve all the way and let it drain.
 
Scott Ickes said:
It is determined by sparge method.  As I don't fly sparge, I can't give you a qualified answer for fly sparging.  Only that it needs to be slow.  For batch sparging (which is what I do), I lauter and drain.  When I say lauter, I probably over lauter, but you can't lauter too much.  I just make sure that my wort is as clear as possible going into my boil pot.  I don't want to boil any grains, as this will cause astrigency.  Once I've lautered to the point of clear wort, I open the valve all the way and let it drain.

I batch sparge as well and lauter ~2-3 quarts. Till the wort is mostly clear and no large particles are flowing through. If a few pieces of grain get through I don't worry about it because you only have to worry about astringency if your pH is above 5.7 and I'm pretty confident in my water chemistry.
 
Scott Ickes said:
It is determined by sparge method.  As I don't fly sparge, I can't give you a qualified answer for fly sparging.  Only that it needs to be slow.  For batch sparging (which is what I do), I lauter and drain.  When I say lauter, I probably over lauter, but you can't lauter too much.  I just make sure that my wort is as clear as possible going into my boil pot.  I don't want to boil any grains, as this will cause astrigency.  Once I've lautered to the point of clear wort, I open the valve all the way and let it drain.

This is interesting and is starting to clear the fog in my mind as I have wanted some clarity on sparge methods.  Could you elaborate some more on "I lauter and drain?"  So... to "make sure wort is clear" are you draining wort into a pitcher and putting it back in the mash tun if it isn't clear and repeating this process until it is?  I'm getting closer to getting it...I think!
 
that's the idea. I use a medium saucepan cause that's what's at hand. a pitcher works too. remember it's going to get very hot so a metal pitcher is not a great idea.
 
I have a special beermaking pitcher that my wife got me at the dollar store.  Of course is was $1.  I used to use a pitcher from my ice tea machine, but the marks on the side did not correspond to an actual measurement.  They were at like .28 gallons or something.  The one she got for me has marks at 1/4, 1/3, 1/2, 2/3, 3/4 and 1 gallon.  I can use it for control of water measurements that are very accurate. 

The following will probably be cleared up by others that know the terms and processes better, but here goes.

I'm not sure what term is more accurate.  I probably should have said "Vorlauf and drain".  If I'm not mistaken "Vorlauf", means to pull out some wort through your screen and add it back to the mash until it runs clear coming out through your screen.  When we say "Lauter", I think we're covering a whole range of mash out processes.  There are some people that have systems with pumps, etc. that recirculate the wort until it's running clear and then with the turning of a valve they can go from recirculating to draining.  I think "Lautering" actually is a termed used to cover the entire process of clearing the wort and draining.  Whereas, "Vorlauf" actually means to drain a little wort and add it back in until it's clear. If anyone has a better explanation, please chime in, as I'd like to understand the terminology better myself.

Now, to what I meant.

What I meant when I said, "Lauter and drain".  I open the valve on my Mash Lauter Tun (MLT) a little bit and drain it into my pitcher, until the pitcher is nearly full.  Then I pour it gently back into my MLT.  I keep repeating this until there is no grainy residue in the wort and no grainy residue left behind in my pitcher.  I then just open the valve up and let it drain into my boil pot.  Once I have every last drop, I add my sparge water to my MLT and stir it.  The temperature that I add my sparge water at is at a temperature that when mixed with the grain left in the MLT is a temperature that will equalize at 168F.  If you come up a little low on temperature, you can drain some of it out into an empty boil pot, heat it and add it back in, until you get it up to 168F.  Once I get it to 168F, I let it sit for 15 minutes.  Then I lauter and drain as before.  If my volumes are correct and my equipment set up in BeerSmith is correct, I'll have exactly what my preboil volume should be.  I then check my pre-boil OG and see how close I came to my target.  Hopefully, my volume and pre-boil OG are dead on and I can proceed with my boil. 

If it's off a little bit, I'll make adjustments.  Adjustments for missing either your pre-boil volume or pre-boil OG is something for a completely new thread though.
 
Wow moment!  The brewing light bulb as far as "mashing" just went off!  That really clears things up for me.  Thank you!

And Scott if you or someone else wanted to or felt like posting a thread on "Adjustments for missing either your pre-boil volume or pre-boil OG"  ....I know I would be all ears.
 
Scott Ickes said:
I have a special beermaking pitcher that my wife got me at the dollar store.  Of course is was $1.  I used to use a pitcher from my ice tea machine, but the marks on the side did not correspond to an actual measurement.  They were at like .28 gallons or something.  The one she got for me has marks at 1/4, 1/3, 1/2, 2/3, 3/4 and 1 gallon.  I can use it for control of water measurements that are very accurate. 

The following will probably be cleared up by others that know the terms and processes better, but here goes.

I'm not sure what term is more accurate.  I probably should have said "Vorlauf and drain".  If I'm not mistaken "Vorlauf", means to pull out some wort through your screen and add it back to the mash until it runs clear coming out through your screen.  When we say "Lauter", I think we're covering a whole range of mash out processes.  There are some people that have systems with pumps, etc. that recirculate the wort until it's running clear and then with the turning of a valve they can go from recirculating to draining.  I think "Lautering" actually is a termed used to cover the entire process of clearing the wort and draining.  Whereas, "Vorlauf" actually means to drain a little wort and add it back in until it's clear. If anyone has a better explanation, please chime in, as I'd like to understand the terminology better myself.

Now, to what I meant.

What I meant when I said, "Lauter and drain".  I open the valve on my Mash Lauter Tun (MLT) a little bit and drain it into my pitcher, until the pitcher is nearly full.  Then I pour it gently back into my MLT.  I keep repeating this until there is no grainy residue in the wort and no grainy residue left behind in my pitcher.  I then just open the valve up and let it drain into my boil pot.  Once I have every last drop, I add my sparge water to my MLT and stir it.  The temperature that I add my sparge water at is at a temperature that when mixed with the grain left in the MLT is a temperature that will equalize at 168F.  If you come up a little low on temperature, you can drain some of it out into an empty boil pot, heat it and add it back in, until you get it up to 168F.  Once I get it to 168F, I let it sit for 15 minutes.  Then I lauter and drain as before.  If my volumes are correct and my equipment set up in BeerSmith is correct, I'll have exactly what my preboil volume should be.  I then check my pre-boil OG and see how close I came to my target.  Hopefully, my volume and pre-boil OG are dead on and I can proceed with my boil. 

If it's off a little bit, I'll make adjustments.  Adjustments for missing either your pre-boil volume or pre-boil OG is something for a completely new thread though.

it's funny, looking back over the thread I clearly remember typing vorlauf in my post and reading vorlauf in yours. But yeah I think your explanation is more or less accurate. IN some breweries there will be two separate vessels, one for mashing (the Mash tun) and one for lautering (the Lauter tun) the entire mash, grain and all is pumped from the mashtun to the lauter tun. I believe this is done mostly to allow the next mash to go into the mash tun right away given that it will take ~1 hour to lauter.

 
Read the "Gravity Readings" posts pinned at the top of the "All Grain/Advanced section of this forum.
 
durrettd said:
Read the "Gravity Readings" posts pinned at the top of the "All Grain/Advanced section of this forum.

I've been reading through this and it's really good information.  I need to re-read it again and again.

Quick question:  when a recipe calls for example: 18.13 qt. "mash in" how do you measure so precise or does anyone?  Is there easy math to figure how many Oz. equals .13  or do you just round up or down and get close? 

So for this example would you go with 18 and a quarter of a qt. or does it really matter that much?
 
OzarkBrewer said:
Wow moment!  The brewing light bulb as far as "mashing" just went off!  That really clears things up for me.  Thank you!

And Scott if you or someone else wanted to or felt like posting a thread on "Adjustments for missing either your pre-boil volume or pre-boil OG"  ....I know I would be all ears.

Durretdd already referred you, but here are the links:

mash adjustments: http://www.beersmith.com/forum/index.php/topic,9508.0.html
boil adjustments: http://www.beersmith.com/forum/index.php/topic,9875.0.html

Its a bit shameless of me, since I wrote both posts.  But, there it is. 
 
OzarkBrewer said:
durrettd said:
Read the "Gravity Readings" posts pinned at the top of the "All Grain/Advanced section of this forum.

I've been reading through this and it's really good information.  I need to re-read it again and again.

Quick question:  when a recipe calls for example: 18.13 qt. "mash in" how do you measure so precise or does anyone?  Is there easy math to figure how many Oz. equals .13  or do you just round up or down and get close? 

So for this example would you go with 18 and a quarter of a qt. or does it really matter that much?

I measure to the half-quart for mash and sparge additions.  I would round that down to 18 quarts.

0.25 quarts = 1 cup = 8 ounces
 
I just put the water in hotter and wait the 5 minutes or so for it to drop to strike temperature. I prefer to take the mash tun temperature out of the equation, maybe this page can help you http://www.swisscubancigars.com/blog/how-to-taste-a-cuban-cigar/
 
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