JakeCpuNut
Apprentice
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2012
- Messages
- 5
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First question I have is how much volume to put in the "lauter tun deadspace" field. Our MLT has 31 gallons under the screens and I've seen others say put that number in that field. But that's not really loss as the MLT drains from the bottom of the MLT so really the only loss is what's left in the lines. I think I even seen Brad say in one of his videos to put the amount that's under the screens??
Now on to the more confusing stuff (I realize "now" that there has been quite a bit of discussion about this issue of whether to put any volume in the "Loss to Trub and Chiller" field.
So after having used beersmith for several years on the homebrewing scale I used it to formulate our recipes for our 10bbl system.
Our first brew we were off on our numbers so I did some digging and found several different discussions on how beersmith calculates things that I wasn't aware of and also discussion on how there's a "bug" in the software or at least some claim..
Keep in mind we originally set the recipe in beersmith for 85% "total" efficiency. Starting gravity of 1.058 (14.2P). We ended up getting 1.047 (11.6P) at the end of boil. Sample taken from the BK at flame out.
“Total” efficiency is still at 85% and in the “Fermentation” section where I enter what I measured is says my “measured” efficiency is 69%
Our boil off rate was different from what were told it would be (10%) and the volume from BK to FV was off, I had no idea what it would be so I guessed.
So I went back into the recipe and changed the boil off rate and Trub and Chiller loss to match what we got. Here are the numbers..
7bbl ~ 3:1 water to grist + 1bbl under screens + sparged with 6bbl accounting for 2bbl absorption to get 12bbl preboil
590 lb grain bill
372 gallons (preboil)
- 23.50 ( there was 348.50 gallons left at flame out – post boil 6.3%)
-15.50 gallons (cooling/shrinkage)
-38.5 gallons (loss to trub and chiller)
Subtract all those from the Preboil and you’re left with your “batch volume” which is 294.50 gallons. Down from the 315 I originally had before I knew any real numbers.
I changed those numbers and obviously it changed my Est Orginal Gravity to 1.062 (15.1P) This number went up because the batch volume went down after I changed to reflect actual volumes.
“Total” efficiency is still at 85% and in the “Fermentation” section where I enter what I measured is says my “measured” efficiency is 64.6%
Beersmith calculates Est Original gravity on that "batch volume" number.
Beersmith defines "Batch Volume" as "volume of beer as measured into the fermenter"
All of the sudden it kinda hit me, at end of boil (flame out) you don't have shrinkage yet because you haven't chilled it and you haven't had trub and chiller loss yet for the same reason, you haven't transferred and chilled it so I’m thinking this is why my numbers are off even after the volume corrections.
So my "post boil volume' 348.50 and my "batch volume" 294.50 numbers are different and it gives me an Est original gravity of 1.062 (15.1P) mentioned above.
Sooo, I decide to take the cooling loss out of the equation and didn't enter anything in the "trub and chiller loss" field so the "Post boil volume" and "batch volume" numbers now match which makes sense (to me at least).. now my Est original gravity changes from 1.062 (15.1P) to 1.052 (12.8P) Total efficiency still at 85%, measured efficiency goes up to 76.4%. much better than originally thought.. still not good though.
Now note here.. if I go into the “Mash” section of the software my “est mash eff shows 85% and my “measured mash efficiency” shows 95% in the Mash Efficiency section.. even though in the “Fermentation” section my “measured efficiency still shows 76.4% more on that below..
So at this point I was thinking I just need to not subtract shrinkage and loss to trub and chiller from your end of boil volumes, and that I just needed to add more grain to get my measured gravity up or tweak our procedures a bit..
After reading around the forums and talking with a couple of folks I was told you DO need to leave the "trub and chiller loss" numbers and cooling/shrinking numbers accounted for, and instead of taking those numbers out of the equation you need to go "the "Estimated Mash Efficiency" and "Measured Mash Efficiency" in the "Mash Efficiency" section and make those 2 number match. Remember mine were at 85% and 95% when I was at 1.052 (12.8P) with those volumes taken out of the equation. You get those numbers to match by changing the “brewhouse efficiency percentage” in the Equipment profile. Remember mine is currently at 85%
So I go back and (add the trub and chiller loss) back into the equation, account for cooling and to match the numbers in the "Estimated Mash Efficiency" and "Measured Mash Efficiency" once again my Est Original Gravity goes back up to 1.062, measured efficiency goes back to 64.6%, Total efficiency still shows 85%
I go into the “mash efficiency” section and now the numbers are 96.1% Est mash efficiency & 95.5% measured mash efficiency. I go to and change the “brewhouse efficiency” number from 85% to 84.5% to get those 2 numbers in the “mash efficiency section” to match and now are at 95.5% Est mash efficiency & 95.5% measured mash efficiency.
Estimated Original Gravity is now finalized at 1.062 (15.1P) up from my original recipe of 1.058 (14.2P) and shows a Total efficiency of 84.5% and a measured efficiency of 64.6%
Soooooo, what am I’m missing here? Or am I missing something? I suck at math, my head hurts and at this point I don’t know up from down..
Now enter promash..
Sooo.. this morning I downloaded Promash and entered the grains (didn't enter any hops) from the same recipe I've been discussing. Same percentages.. same yield from each grain.. it gives me a preboil gravity of 1.046 (11.4P) and a starting gravity of 1.048 (11.98P) @ 85% efficiency. I can't change the boil off rate in promash and it's at 5% So 12bbl preboil with a post boil "batch size" of 11.40bbl to give me those numbers.
I realize the boil off is like 1.3% less in promash (can’t change it that I could tell) end of boil in promash is at 353.40 gallons compared to beersmiths 348.50 gallons end of boil but to me you can’t even compare those 2 because from what I’ve been told Beersmith needs those other fields entered to calculate correctly. So I have no clue which is correct?
Any input would be greatly appreciated .. I think I've looked at this so much I'm numb from it.. As I said I realize there has been quite a bit of discussion on this possible "Bug" but I just need to get this nailed down for $$ purposes!!
Thanks for any and all input ahead of time!
Now on to the more confusing stuff (I realize "now" that there has been quite a bit of discussion about this issue of whether to put any volume in the "Loss to Trub and Chiller" field.
So after having used beersmith for several years on the homebrewing scale I used it to formulate our recipes for our 10bbl system.
Our first brew we were off on our numbers so I did some digging and found several different discussions on how beersmith calculates things that I wasn't aware of and also discussion on how there's a "bug" in the software or at least some claim..
Keep in mind we originally set the recipe in beersmith for 85% "total" efficiency. Starting gravity of 1.058 (14.2P). We ended up getting 1.047 (11.6P) at the end of boil. Sample taken from the BK at flame out.
“Total” efficiency is still at 85% and in the “Fermentation” section where I enter what I measured is says my “measured” efficiency is 69%
Our boil off rate was different from what were told it would be (10%) and the volume from BK to FV was off, I had no idea what it would be so I guessed.
So I went back into the recipe and changed the boil off rate and Trub and Chiller loss to match what we got. Here are the numbers..
7bbl ~ 3:1 water to grist + 1bbl under screens + sparged with 6bbl accounting for 2bbl absorption to get 12bbl preboil
590 lb grain bill
372 gallons (preboil)
- 23.50 ( there was 348.50 gallons left at flame out – post boil 6.3%)
-15.50 gallons (cooling/shrinkage)
-38.5 gallons (loss to trub and chiller)
Subtract all those from the Preboil and you’re left with your “batch volume” which is 294.50 gallons. Down from the 315 I originally had before I knew any real numbers.
I changed those numbers and obviously it changed my Est Orginal Gravity to 1.062 (15.1P) This number went up because the batch volume went down after I changed to reflect actual volumes.
“Total” efficiency is still at 85% and in the “Fermentation” section where I enter what I measured is says my “measured” efficiency is 64.6%
Beersmith calculates Est Original gravity on that "batch volume" number.
Beersmith defines "Batch Volume" as "volume of beer as measured into the fermenter"
All of the sudden it kinda hit me, at end of boil (flame out) you don't have shrinkage yet because you haven't chilled it and you haven't had trub and chiller loss yet for the same reason, you haven't transferred and chilled it so I’m thinking this is why my numbers are off even after the volume corrections.
So my "post boil volume' 348.50 and my "batch volume" 294.50 numbers are different and it gives me an Est original gravity of 1.062 (15.1P) mentioned above.
Sooo, I decide to take the cooling loss out of the equation and didn't enter anything in the "trub and chiller loss" field so the "Post boil volume" and "batch volume" numbers now match which makes sense (to me at least).. now my Est original gravity changes from 1.062 (15.1P) to 1.052 (12.8P) Total efficiency still at 85%, measured efficiency goes up to 76.4%. much better than originally thought.. still not good though.
Now note here.. if I go into the “Mash” section of the software my “est mash eff shows 85% and my “measured mash efficiency” shows 95% in the Mash Efficiency section.. even though in the “Fermentation” section my “measured efficiency still shows 76.4% more on that below..
So at this point I was thinking I just need to not subtract shrinkage and loss to trub and chiller from your end of boil volumes, and that I just needed to add more grain to get my measured gravity up or tweak our procedures a bit..
After reading around the forums and talking with a couple of folks I was told you DO need to leave the "trub and chiller loss" numbers and cooling/shrinking numbers accounted for, and instead of taking those numbers out of the equation you need to go "the "Estimated Mash Efficiency" and "Measured Mash Efficiency" in the "Mash Efficiency" section and make those 2 number match. Remember mine were at 85% and 95% when I was at 1.052 (12.8P) with those volumes taken out of the equation. You get those numbers to match by changing the “brewhouse efficiency percentage” in the Equipment profile. Remember mine is currently at 85%
So I go back and (add the trub and chiller loss) back into the equation, account for cooling and to match the numbers in the "Estimated Mash Efficiency" and "Measured Mash Efficiency" once again my Est Original Gravity goes back up to 1.062, measured efficiency goes back to 64.6%, Total efficiency still shows 85%
I go into the “mash efficiency” section and now the numbers are 96.1% Est mash efficiency & 95.5% measured mash efficiency. I go to and change the “brewhouse efficiency” number from 85% to 84.5% to get those 2 numbers in the “mash efficiency section” to match and now are at 95.5% Est mash efficiency & 95.5% measured mash efficiency.
Estimated Original Gravity is now finalized at 1.062 (15.1P) up from my original recipe of 1.058 (14.2P) and shows a Total efficiency of 84.5% and a measured efficiency of 64.6%
Soooooo, what am I’m missing here? Or am I missing something? I suck at math, my head hurts and at this point I don’t know up from down..
Now enter promash..
Sooo.. this morning I downloaded Promash and entered the grains (didn't enter any hops) from the same recipe I've been discussing. Same percentages.. same yield from each grain.. it gives me a preboil gravity of 1.046 (11.4P) and a starting gravity of 1.048 (11.98P) @ 85% efficiency. I can't change the boil off rate in promash and it's at 5% So 12bbl preboil with a post boil "batch size" of 11.40bbl to give me those numbers.
I realize the boil off is like 1.3% less in promash (can’t change it that I could tell) end of boil in promash is at 353.40 gallons compared to beersmiths 348.50 gallons end of boil but to me you can’t even compare those 2 because from what I’ve been told Beersmith needs those other fields entered to calculate correctly. So I have no clue which is correct?
Any input would be greatly appreciated .. I think I've looked at this so much I'm numb from it.. As I said I realize there has been quite a bit of discussion on this possible "Bug" but I just need to get this nailed down for $$ purposes!!
Thanks for any and all input ahead of time!