Recipe amounts do not adjust for wort lost to brewing system

Hi-

I am trying to figure out this software!  I have dutifully figured out the losses in my system (lauter tun dead space, trub and wort loss in boil kettle, wort lost to chiller and hoses), and put the resulting info into my brewing equipment profile.  Then, after inputting a recipe and choosing my brewing equipment, I go to the brew steps and the recipe has not been adjusted to account for the extra wort that must be make to accommodate my equipment, and still end up with a volume that is a straight multiple of 5 gallons (I keg the beer).  I also added in the volume lost to the fermenter, and the program just subtracts that from my final yield, instead of calculating the additional wort that I should make to hit the desired yield (I think that any type of fermenter would easily include the small amount of head space needed to add the extra 0.4 gal of wort that would be left after racking from the fermenter).  Am I doing something wrong?  Isn't the point of a program such as this to make it easy to input recipes that are generally formulated for 5 or 6 gallons, and then customize the amounts in those recipes to make the beer hit the proper OG and yield based on your personal brewing setup?

Thanks for any help.  I am starting to think it might be easier to continue calculating by hand, but I already purchased the software and would like to get it to work.

Tom

Unfortunately, BeerSmith keys off of the Brewhouse or total efficiency.  This is the efficiency into the fermentor.  When you adjust the amount of loss to the trub, the program will recalculate the mash efficiency to accommodate your alteration, thus keeping the same outcome for the amount of grains you have specified.

In actuality, I find that my mash efficiency is pretty consistent and my brewhouse efficiency changes to take into account additional material left in the kettle due to hop loading and other materials.  When making an adjustment to the amount of trub loss, I then go back and readjust the brewhouse efficiency to get my mash efficiency back to where I know it will come out.

tomhok said:

Then, after inputting a recipe and choosing my brewing equipment, I go to the brew steps and the recipe has not been adjusted to account for the extra wort....  Isn't the point of a program such as this to make it easy to input recipes that are generally formulated for 5 or 6 gallons, and then customize the amounts in those recipes to make the beer hit the proper OG and yield based on your personal brewing setup?

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Are you inputting a recipe, then just changing it you your equipment profile? It sounds like you need to use the Scale Recipe function.

Once you input a recipe from a known source, along with their equipment profile, use the Scale Recipe function to adjust it to your situation. The Scale Recipe tool allows you to either match the OG, Color and IBU, or to scale in a strictly linear fashion. The choice is dependent on how much scaling is being doe and what options you have set. If you're using default options, there isn't much difference between linear and matched scaling.

As Oginme pointed out, Brewhouse, rather than Mash, efficiency is the driving force in gravity predictions. So, the batch size into the fermenter is the center of the calculations. Post fermentation losses are indeed subtracted from there. However, just upping the batch size to include fermenter loss (as it does, anyway) is a minor tweak to the main profile.

Thanks Oginme and brewfun for your quick replies to my post!  I appreciate your efforts to get me up to speed, and I'm glad some of our yummy spent grains get eaten by goats!

Oginme, I think my main confusion comes from the fact that there seems to be multiple ways to account for wort losses in this program.  You can put the volume losses in your equipment profile, but you can also change the brewhouse efficiency.  Mash efficiency should be pretty constant, as you say.  But how can I be certain of my theoretical BeerSmith mash efficiency when you say I can adjust brewhouse efficiency and get a change in mash efficiency?

BTW, I made a test recipe from scratch, changed the brewhouse efficiency on the recipe page (which used my equipment profile), and there was no change in mash efficiency.  Based on your notes, I expected a change.  Tinkering further, I realized that I MUST use the scale recipe function to make the brewhouse efficiency change, NOT the recipe page.  It is extremely misleading to leave the brewhouse efficiency as a changeable parameter on the recipe page, but not give it functionality.  I think the same is true of the equipment profile, which must be changed on the scale recipe function and not the recipe page.  I'll put a note for a change in the software as nonfunctional changeable parameters can only lead to frustration and misunderstanding.

brewfun, I did try the scale recipe function to make adjustments to my recipe by applying my equipment profile to a recipe that I downloaded from the cloud.  But when I manually enter a recipe from the internet, what should I use as the default system?  When you see a recipe in the Brew Your Own mag, it may say the recipe is extract or grain, but it will not specify a system and it's loss profile. 

Also, as I mentioned above, it appears you must change the equipment profile using the scale recipe function as opposed to changing it on the recipe page, which appears to do nothing.

Finally, I changed the batch size on the recipe page of a BeerSmith recipe from 5 to 5.4 to account for fermenter losses, but no change was made to the ingredient amounts.  Are you not meant to make any changes to batch parameters on the recipe page, and use in strictly for inputting ingredients?

Many thanks again for your help!

The most important thing to remember is that a brewer makes changes based on the context of the situation. BeerSmith has many, many layers of options to allow brewers a wide variety or contextual changes.

tomhok said:

I think my main confusion comes from the fact that there seems to be multiple ways to account for wort losses in this program.  You can put the volume losses in your equipment profile, but you can also change the brewhouse efficiency. 

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There are only two "true" loss measurements in BeerSmith. Loss to Trub and Chiller, then Fermenter Loss. Cooling Shrinkage and Boil Off are not losses. In fact, boiloff is a concentration of sugar.

Efficiency is in the plus column, it's not a loss. You start with dry grain, which will never yield anything, without brewer effort. So, that effort is adding to the sugar content of the fermenter, not subtracting from it.

Mash efficiency should be pretty constant, as you say.  But how can I be certain of my theoretical BeerSmith mash efficiency when you say I can adjust brewhouse efficiency and get a change in mash efficiency?

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Brewhouse efficiency is the total amount of sugar available that makes it into the fermenter. Anything that doesn't make it into the fermenter is a loss, and thus reduces Brewhouse efficiency. In other words, the net yield into the fermenter.

Mash efficiency is simply the percentage of total soluble weight (sugar) of the grain that's dissolved into the water and gets to the boil pot. In other words, the gross yield.

Your loss to trub and chiller (if any) can be expressed as a percentage of the total gross wort produced. Since it doesn't get into the fermenter, it is also a factor in reducing brewhouse efficiency.

So, if you input 85% brewhouse efficiency, but no trub loss, then brewhouse and mash efficiency are pretty much the same. You'll see a gravity value, based on that brewhouse efficiency.

However, if you then add trub loss that is say 20% of the total post boil kettle volume, but still claim 85% brewhouse efficiency, the OG will remain constant and mash efficiency will rise. Why? Because you're saying that 85% of all the available sugar will get to the fermenter. The ONLY way that can happen is to get more out of the grain to account for the lost volume at the same gravity.

It is extremely misleading to leave the brewhouse efficiency as a changeable parameter on the recipe page, but not give it functionality.  I think the same is true of the equipment profile, which must be changed on the scale recipe function and not the recipe page.  I'll put a note for a change in the software as nonfunctional changeable parameters can only lead to frustration and misunderstanding.

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Both Brewhouse and Equipment profile changes have enormous functionality. Just because you've seen a snapshot of low to no change, does not make it nonfunctional.

A brewer can take an unscaled recipe and apply a different equipment profile and BeerSmith will reflect changes in OG, based on Brewhouse Efficiency and Trub loss. Basically the same as taking the same bag of ingredients from one brewer to another, the numbers will turn out differently because systems are different. In other words, a different beer.

Again, this is a layer of flexibility, based on context. The context you're talking about is trying to make the same beer as another brewer, but the context is to adapt it to your system and techniques.

But when I manually enter a recipe from the internet, what should I use as the default system?  When you see a recipe in the Brew Your Own mag, it may say the recipe is extract or grain, but it will not specify a system and it's loss profile.

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The brewer will typically give you the equipment context. If nothing else, make an equipment profile with no trub loss and the batch volume stated by the author. If the gravity, color and IBU numbers don't align, you can tweek the recipe until they do. Then scale it to your system. You should put captured recipes in their own folder for future reference as your system and understanding of BeerSmith evolve. That way, you'll still have the baseline.

In BYO, I believe the standardized system is described in the publisher pages at the beginning of the mag. The same process as just described, applies.

Finally, I changed the batch size on the recipe page of a BeerSmith recipe from 5 to 5.4 to account for fermenter losses, but no change was made to the ingredient amounts.  Are you not meant to make any changes to batch parameters on the recipe page, and use in strictly for inputting ingredients?

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What probably changed was the OG, color and IBU numbers. Again, this is context. Perhaps at the end of a brewday, you find you have extra wort going to the fermenter, but the same amount of trub. Changing the batch volume to reflect that is exactly how you hone your equipment profile. You'll see the predicted OG fall slightly, and can more easily see how your mash and brewhouse efficiency worked out.