Sparge water temp

OK I have spent the last hour searching the forum and Google to no avail so Im just going to ask.

I have the box checked that tells BeerSmith to calculate for my equipment temps as well as having entered my grain and tun temps.  Nothing I do changes what appears in the brew steps for "sparge water temp"..It always says 168.00  I know it has to start out higher then that.  Brewtarget has it at 177

You can change the targeted sparge temperature in the Mash Tab. The field is at the bottom of the center column. It's not calculated, it's a brewer control.

brewfun said:

You can change the targeted sparge temperature in the Mash Tab. The field is at the bottom of the center column. It's not calculated, it's a brewer control.

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Ah!.. :-[ .............Well +1 for Brewtarget I guess.    User setting of the target sparge temp is one thing but your actual  sparge water will need to be hotter then that to hit that target, and its nice to know what that temp needs to be for your volume of mash.

Thanks for the info mate.

looking to learn from this tidbit... why do you want to sparge with water hotter than 170, which i read can release tannins?

jtoots said:

looking to learn from this tidbit... why do you want to sparge with water hotter than 170, which i read can release tannins?

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I don't...but just like your initial infusion water temp is usually hotter then 170  to hit  your 156 or 158 mash temp target..so must be your sparge water temp to hit  your 165 target for mash out / sparge  process.  Your going to loose those extra degrees instantly trying to raise the mass already in the  mash tun that's at a lower temperature.
  Just like the initial grains and your room or outside temperature mash tun will suck heat from the infusion water , so does the mash that's already there before sparging because its at a lower temperature.  BeerSmith calulates this initial infusion water temp for you but not your sparge water temp and It just as easily could/should.
  Its more critical for those of us that use coolers and do not  constantly heat each vessel as the progress progresses down the line.  Our Goal Should  be to have 165 degree ( or close)  wort draining from our mash tun's not just entering it.

  For example......For 10 pounds of grain already in the tun sitting at 158f  is roughly  going to translate into a  almost "instant" loss of 9 degrees  of your sparge water temp  by adding your 1 batch sparge of say 4+ gal of water into your mash tun all at once.  this temp loss will even be a worse loss curve when fly sparging  as your asking a small trickle of water to raise a large mass at a much lower temp.  I think you will find your efficiency will increase a few percentages, as you will actually be washing/extracting sugar's at the proper ideal temp. And not an over temp extracting  off flavors due to the  almost instant drop in sparge water temperature.

I went to an All Grain Class at my LHBS and they had some sort of a equation to figure this out but to be honest the instructor just said he knew what it should approximately be just from experience.  This temperature will change with mash  volumes though, so to me its just better to have a program that figures it out for us .  BeerSmith  could be one of the best platform's for this.  Right now I'm using a different program to figure it out for me.

Here is an example from the other program that I labeled as" Winter" , which has my outside Mash tun temp and grains already calculated into it for a 50 degree day:

Infusion - Winter : Add 3.281 gal water at 173.530 F to mash to bring it to 158.000 F. Hold for 60.000 min.
Infusion - Final Batch Sparge : Add 4.606 gal water at 177.692 F to mash to bring it to 165.200 F. Hold for 15.000 min.
 

solid, thorough answer. thanks for taking the time out, much appreciated. i'm a fly sparger and have been taking the 168 at face value... this is certainly something to think about.

jtoots said:

solid, thorough answer. thanks for taking the time out, much appreciated. i'm a fly sparger and have been taking the 168 at face value... this is certainly something to think about.

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Fly Sparging presents a different wrench into the monkey works.  While batch sparging allows one to thoroughly mix  the infusion water all at once which as noted above almost instantly lowers that waters temperature as it brings the existing grain mass and Tun to a higher one thus nullifying much risk of tannin extractions. Sparging on the other hand is asking that same water to slowly drain from the top down. Potentially over temping the very top grains while under-temping  the lower ones. 
  I think you would have to do a couple experiments as to both the speed of sparge, as well as simultaneous monitoring of  both top grain bed temp  vs. bottom wort collection temperature to come up with the best "safest" temperature to infuse with. This would pretty much be a constant giving all things remaining the same batch to batch so you would not have to do it every time.  Risks would be say  a stuck sparge where hot water is still infusing and over heating the top yet obviously not  cooling as it is precipitating down through the grain bed.
 
In the end though, it should  be the  taste of your beer as being the determining factor over anything we do , rather that's in the name of efficiency , ease of process or whatever methods chosen.  I have only brought this to light for my own interest and what I want to implement into my own batch sparges so please be cautious with sparging yours by changing anything your already doing.

  Who knows,  we may find out that efficiency using proper batch sparging temperatures and some initial  re-circulation are not very far off after all  from those of fly sparging and its additional time and equipment requirement needed,  Good to keep an open mind anyway.

Carry On!

I agree... wonderful food for thought.

-I know what I've been doing works (fly sparging w/ 168 degree water).
-My efficiency is not horrible.  I'm up in the 80+% range which is fine for me.
-The resultant beer tastes great.
-I've never encountered anything that I would consider the result of tannin extraction.

Soooo I'll stick with what I've been doing for the time being.  Carry on indeed.  But again, great food for thought and I've learned something today.  Thank you and CHEERS!

I use the decoction method to mash-out while the sparge water is getting hot.  It allows you to heat the mash without diluting it.

You remove a third of the mash (I just eyeball it, but measuring wouldn't hurt), bring it to a full boil for a couple minutes, then mix it back in.

Lets say your mash is at 150. 1/3 *  212 + 2/3 * 150 = 170 (ish). 

Last batch I did equalized at 165. Close enough.

Anyway, this way you can use 170 degree sparge water, and have consistent temperatures all the way through. No hot top.

Maine Homebrewer said:

I use the decoction method to mash-out while the sparge water is getting hot.  It allows you to heat the mash without diluting it.

You remove a third of the mash (I just eyeball it, but measuring wouldn't hurt), bring it to a full boil for a couple minutes, then mix it back in.

Lets say your mash is at 150. 1/3 *  212 + 2/3 * 150 = 170 (ish). 

Last batch I did equalized at 165. Close enough.

Anyway, this way you can use 170 degree sparge water, and have consistent temperatures all the way through. No hot top.

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This technique has always confused me.    If Tannin's are extracted out above 170 how can one remove and boil any part of the mash  without doing the same?  Or are you just draining and reheating the wort?

The only answer I can pragmatically come up with for partial mash decoction is that it takes longer then a few minutes to extract tannin's period.  If this is indeed true then I would think Fly sparging with say 177 degree water should not be a problem and would help with complete mass tun temperature rise getting to your target 165 degree wort collection temp  as quickly as possible for optimum efficiency.

BTW I like your term "Hot Top"

No draining. I just scoop out some mash and boil it. I try to get as much liquid as I can, leaving as much grain behind as I can, but grain is being boiled.  I've never had a tannin issue that I noticed.

It's a technique that is used by many commercial breweries, and that's good enough for me.

Try it. I've been doing it for years and my beer is pretty darn good.

Stillraining said:

This technique has always confused me.    If Tannin's are extracted out above 170 how can one remove and boil any part of the mash without doing the same? 

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This is one of those cases where the result is highly dependent on where it happens in the process.

Grain Tannin extraction is pH, viscosity and heat dependent. Tannin extraction at first wort concentration (decoction) and pH is relatively negligible.

Tannin extraction late in the sparge can rise if pH isn't buffered and the sugar concentration is too low. The accepted levels for when tannin extraction becomes easier is pH 6 and gravity below 1.008.

Tannin extraction isn't an entirely bad thing, though. Some tannins are inevitable just because beer is a grain based beverage. Tannins aid in drying a beer out, add texture to hop bitterness and add complexity to most malt flavors. The goal is to keep them low enough that they don't dominate.

brewfun said:

This is one of those cases where the result is highly dependent on where it happens in the process.

Grain Tannin extraction is pH, viscosity and heat dependent. Tannin extraction at first wort concentration (decoction) and pH is relatively negligible.

Tannin extraction late in the sparge can rise if pH isn't buffered and the sugar concentration is too low. The accepted levels for when tannin extraction becomes easier is pH 6 and gravity below 1.008.

Tannin extraction isn't an entirely bad thing, though. Some tannins are inevitable just because beer is a grain based beverage. Tannins aid in drying a beer out, add texture to hop bitterness and add complexity to most malt flavors. The goal is to keep them low enough that they don't dominate.

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Great explanation brewfun....and it plays into my higher sparge water infusion temp defense really well. Possibly with fly sparging as well, Thanks!  OK Beer smith code writers get on it... ;D

( I just want to be clear that by choosing one or two of the mash profiles in beerSmith (and they are not conveniently designated) it will indeed calculate out what this temp should be, but no matter what you do you can not get it to appear in your brew steps unless you manually insert it there...this is silly and a bug IMHO)