Accounting for drop in mash temp during a rest

Sorry if this has already been addressed elsewhere, but...

I see no way to account for a decrease in mash temp during the course of a rest in BeerSmith 2.  I know there are ways around this, but I see no reason that one should have to work around this shortcoming (apologies if this feature exists but I was too dumb to find it  ).

I batch sparge and during the course of stirring, vorlauf, and running off I lose a considerable amount of heat, so it would be nice if there were a simple way to deal with this when calculating batch temp.

Seems like it would be a very simple thing to allow a user to specify initial and final temp of a rest independently.

Any feedback on this is welcome.  Thanks!

For the most part, the precision that you're asking for is in BeerSmith. You've accurately recorded the weight and specific heat of your mashtun in your equipment profile? You accurately measure the temperature of both the mashtun and the grain on brew day? These are variables already in BeerSmith that significantly increase temperature accuracy.

Your question implies that you think there is a change to your wort from the temperature? How so? Over how much time?

rustyhoover said:

I batch sparge and during the course of stirring, vorlauf, and running off I lose a considerable amount of heat, so it would be nice if there were a simple way to deal with this when calculating batch temp.

Seems like it would be a very simple thing to allow a user to specify initial and final temp of a rest independently.

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It would be very difficult (and honestly, I am not sure what the value is) of figuring out the effect of a temperature drop due to stirring (for how long?), vorlaufing (how many times?), or running off (how much time does it take for you?).  As long as you are consistent in how you run your process, you will come out with repeatable results.  From there, the ability to adjust the modelling within BeerSmith is available as brewfun has stated.

When I use my mash tun and batch sparge, the times for draining the mash tun and how many times I vorlauf depends a lot on the size of the grain bill and how finely I grind.  Since I don't use my 20 liter system a lot, I cannot tell you what kind of variability I would see, but considering I can move from a 10 liter BIAB to my 20 liter mash tun and get consistent results, I don't think there is much.

brewfun said:

For the most part, the precision that you're asking for is in BeerSmith. You've accurately recorded the weight and specific heat of your mashtun in your equipment profile? You accurately measure the temperature of both the mashtun and the grain on brew day? These are variables already in BeerSmith that significantly increase temperature accuracy.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the replies, gents. 

I completely agree that the factors you list will allow you to predict your strike temp very accurately, but without other inputs, there's no way they could come close to predicting a temperature drop where several other factors need to be taken into account and seemingly aren't.

The good new is that I don't want BeerSmith to automatically calculate anything for me--as Oginme states that would be pretty much impossible and not value-added.  I simply want BeerSmith to allow me to enter a temperature drop that exists, is measurable in real time, and varies with mash volume, ambient temp, water/grain ratio, rest duration and the time my cooler MLT is open, and so on.

In all honesty, I think this feature is a no-brainer.  Just need to add a second user input for end-of-rest temp along with the initial rest temp that's already there and allow it to default to the beginning temp so it won't disturb people who don't want to mess with it.

Your question implies that you think there is a change to your wort from the temperature? How so? Over how much time?

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Not 100% sure I follow.  If you're asking whether a temp drop exists and is potentially significant, I can assure you it does.  On a cold windy day I  can lose >10 degrees F between the beginning of a rest and the end of runoff.  Much less so for a temp step during conversion, but I also care a lot more about miscalculations in the 2-5 degree F range.

If you're asking whether I can measure or perceive a change in my wort due to these phenomena, that's a bit tougher to say definitively.  There are a whole lot of ways that it might: runoff volume, extraction, fermentability of the wort...all may be affected to some extent depending on whether it's a step during conversion or simply sparge temp calculation.

rustyhoover said:

I completely agree that the factors you list will allow you to predict your strike temp very accurately, but without other inputs, there's no way they could come close to predicting a temperature drop where several other factors need to be taken into account and seemingly aren't.

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That's a lot to ask of $20 software. It doesn't even exist in $500/month brewery software.

I simply want BeerSmith to allow me to enter a temperature drop that exists, is measurable in real time, and varies with mash volume, ambient temp, water/grain ratio, rest duration and the time my cooler MLT is open, and so on.

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Just need to add a second user input for end-of-rest temp along with the initial rest temp that's already there and allow it to default to the beginning temp so it won't disturb people who don't want to mess with it.

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If this means the need for user defined fields to record things the brewer feels are relevant, I agree.

If you're asking whether a temp drop exists and is potentially significant, I can assure you it does.

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A brewer controls their beer by controlling their process. What you've described is a lack of control over your process.

One of your repeated descriptions is "stirring the mash" and keeping your mashtun open.

Stop fondling the mash!

It can actually be detrimental to your wort. It certainly isn't helping the temperature.

I also care a lot more about miscalculations in the 2-5 degree F range.

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If you fix the 10 degree swings in temperature, the 2 degree ones will go away.

If you're asking whether I can measure or perceive a change in my wort due to these phenomena, that's a bit tougher to say definitively.  There are a whole lot of ways that it might: ....

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"It might," isn't a good reason to worry about it. That's not accuracy, that's pseudo-accuracy that simply takes your concentration away from real process techniques that improve flavor predictability.

There great reasons to track your temperatures and even better ones to control them. What you're asking the software to do requires a lot of modeling that will only confirm what you already know: you need more heat retention in your process.

Well, obviously you don't agree that it would be a useful feature to have two separate boxes, one for beginning and another for end rest temp, so that later infusions could take that data into account.  I don't really understand your vigorous opposition, but to each his own.

Please note again that I explicitly stated that I have no interest in having Beersmith automatically predict or adjust for it based on other inputs.  Seems like this is the one part of my reply that you didn't highlight or respond to, so maybe you missed it.

BTW, I didn't want to go there, but Promash has exactly this feature in their mash calculations.  It's not that difficult .