Scaling recipe for efficiency...odd outcome

I am looking to brew Northern Brewer's Grapefruit Pulpin' and have plugged the recipe into Beersmith. In order to match the OG they claim in the recipe (1.065) with their grain bill I had to set it at 62% efficiency. I have 80% efficiency so obviously I need to scale it to my system to get a new grain bill. I scaled this to my equipment with two methods and it isn't making sense to me the outcome I am getting.

Here is the original recipe at 63% efficiency.

13 lb Rahr 2-row (94.55%)
8 oz Dingemans Cara 20 (3.64%)
4 oz Briess Caramel 20L (1.82%)

When I scale this to my 80% efficiency system checking the box "keep original color and IBU's, I get this grain bill:

9 lbs 13.7 oz Rahr 2-row (90.54%)
11 oz Dingemans Cara 20 (6.31%)
5.5 oz Briess Caramel 20L (3.15%)

To me it makes no sense at all that for the same volume, reducing the amount of 2-row makes you need to increase the amount of crystal malts to keep the color. Tome this would change the entire taste of the beer wouldn't it?

Now let's say I don't check that box and I just opt to scale to efficiency only. I get a grain bill where the ratios stay the same but the color is below 5 SRM compares to 6.3 SRM.

What is the correct and best way to scale this? Do I want the ratio of grains to stay the same for taste or the color, why can't I have both? It is driving me crazy, I just want the final product to be the same as the original and the only difference is efficiency. Is there some kind of wrong calculation Beersmith is using?

arnobg said:

Do I want the ratio of grains to stay the same for taste or the color, why can't I have both? It is driving me crazy, I just want the final product to be the same as the original and the only difference is efficiency. Is there some kind of wrong calculation Beersmith is using?

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When recipes are scaled, it's almost never linear. BeerSmith is doing what it's supposed to for color, gravity, bitterness and alcohol. BeerSmith doesn't know anything about flavor.

When I scale from a small batch to a commercial size, I have to add a layer of my own knowledge of ingredients and flavor to the process. I start with BeerSmith matching the specs of the recipe, then I look for obvious flavor issues by comparing ingredient ratios. 

Since you're extracting more from the same grain, you've got to be a brewer about this and decide if you need to adjust the scaled recipe. Perhaps you want a bit less cara/crystal that's a slightly darker color? Maybe you want the ratios to stay the same but a couple extra gravity points would be acceptable?

brewfun said:

arnobg said:

Do I want the ratio of grains to stay the same for taste or the color, why can't I have both? It is driving me crazy, I just want the final product to be the same as the original and the only difference is efficiency. Is there some kind of wrong calculation Beersmith is using?

Click to expand...

When recipes are scaled, it's almost never linear. BeerSmith is doing what it's supposed to for color, gravity, bitterness and alcohol. BeerSmith doesn't know anything about flavor.

When I scale from a small batch to a commercial size, I have to add a layer of my own knowledge of ingredients and flavor to the process. I start with BeerSmith matching the specs of the recipe, then I look for obvious flavor issues by comparing ingredient ratios. 

Since you're extracting more from the same grain, you've got to be a brewer about this and decide if you need to adjust the scaled recipe. Perhaps you want a bit less cara/crystal that's a slightly darker color? Maybe you want the ratios to stay the same but a couple extra gravity points would be acceptable?

Click to expand...

Appreciate the advice makes sense however, I supposed that decision is above my experience level currently.

Maybe someone with a little more knowledge than me can give advice as to which would be the best option:

1. Adjusting the grain bill to match the OG but keep the ratios of the base grain/caramel malts the same.

2. Adjusting the grain bill to match the OG but let it scale to match color and hope the taste won't be dramatically altered? It is my experience that more than 10% Crystal is too much and Beersmith is essentially telling me to up it from around 5% to 10% Crystal to maintain color that shouldn't have gotten lighter in my opinion because I took way some 2-row?

Why can't you use Dingemans Cara 45, in place of the Dingemans Cara 20, as brewfun suggests?  This will let you keep your grain ratios similar and give you both the color and taste that you're looking for.

Scott Ickes said:

Why can't you use Dingemans Cara 45, in place of the Dingemans Cara 20, as brewfun suggests?  This will let you keep your grain ratios similar and give you both the color and taste that you're looking for.

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Guess I didn't really realize that was his suggestion but that's a decent alternative. Only issue is I don't have easy access to the Cara 45.

Would a combo of Dingemans Cara 20, Briess Caramel 20L/Caramel 40L work?

Would a combo of Dingemans Cara 20, Briess Caramel 20L/Caramel 40L work?

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Yes. I'd just use the Dingeman's, plus the Briess C-40. The reason for the differing malt brands is the contrast between them that'll add complexity. One is richer (Dingeman's) and the other is lightly toasty (Briess).

brewfun said:

Would a combo of Dingemans Cara 20, Briess Caramel 20L/Caramel 40L work?

Click to expand...

Yes. I'd just use the Dingeman's, plus the Briess C-40. The reason for the differing malt brands is the contrast between them that'll add complexity. One is richer (Dingeman's) and the other is lightly toasty (Briess).

Click to expand...

Thanks for the help. Looks like 40L didn't do the job so I inserted Caramel 60L into the software instead of the 20L or 40L. Put it right on the mark for color and I was able to leave all ratios the same.

Now all we want to know when the time comes, is...... How did the taste come out?  Keep us informed....please...