Estimating color of malt extract (SRM is significantly off from reported)

I'm trying to convert some extract recipes, using Briess sparkling amber DME to all-grain.  I figured the easiest way to find a replacement for the amber DME would be to build a recipe with just amber DME in BeerSmith, record the OG and color, then adjust percentages of base malt, caramel 60 °L, and munich (the reported ingredients for Briess's proprietary blend) to match the OG and color.

The problem I'm running into is with the color that BeerSmith is reporting for the amber malt extract.  According to Briess (http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Assets/PDFs/Briess_PISB_CBWSparklingAmberDME.pdf), their extract is 10 ˚L.  That equates to an SRM of 12.8.  So I set the color of the malt extract to 12.8 SRM in BeerSmith and change the amount to 4.45 lbs for a 5 gallon batch.  According to Briess (table under usage information) this should give an OG of 1.040 (BeerSmith says 1.040 so the potential seems to be set right) and color of 13 (I assume Lovibond, which would equate to 16.9 SRM), but BeerSmith predicts a color of 7.9 SRM.

What am I doing wrong here?

What kind of standard are you looking for? BeerSmith uses the Morey equation in determining color for grains. BeerSmith also treats SRM and Lovibond as the same unit for ingredient color density.

The linear view of beer color (Malt Color Units) is:
MCU = (grain_color * grain_lbs)/volume_gallons
But this is only usable at 0 to 10.5 lovibond.

A series of articles on estimating beer color was written by Mosher and Daniels, but each cited the non linearity of their estimations. A reader, Dan Morey, plotted their observations and proposed an equation that better explained color <50.

The Morey equation proposal is here:
http://morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/beerslaw/morey.html

This is how BeerSmith is calculating the color for your amber extract. Using the Morey equation to go from the Spec sheet color to MCU Value (1 lb to make 1 gallon), the estimate is ~24 Lov for a pound of extract.

There is another way to convert this.  Bring up a blank recipe template.  Add the amount of Amber malt extract for the recipe.  From the Briess web site, the amber malt extract is comprised of 2-row pale ale malt, caramel 60 and carapils.  Create a new recipe with those ingredients as about 90% pale ale malt, 3% carapils, and 7% caramel 60.  Using the slider for OG, adjust the target to that of the recipe with the amber malt extract.  Then using the slider for color, adjust the SRM for the all-grain recipe to match the srm of the amber malt extract recipe.  This will be approximately the direct substitution for the extract.  For simplicity sake, you can always omit the Carapils, and the malt extract will be a few points darker than the extract so your Caramel 60 may be a little high, but you will be in the ball park.

brewfun said:

What kind of standard are you looking for? BeerSmith uses the Morey equation in determining color for grains. BeerSmith also treats SRM and Lovibond as the same unit for ingredient color density...

Click to expand...

Thanks for the explanation on Morey's equation! I've heard it mentioned before but never knew anything about it.

As far as what standard I'm looking for, I'm not really concerned with the actual numerical color, but I was concerned that the number BeerSmith was giving me was significantly different from the Briess DME spec sheet's color.  Is Briess assuming a linear color and not using Morey's equation then?

I have a number of recipes that use Briess amber dry malt extract that I've somewhat perfected over the years.  I'd like to keep improving them, using all-grain.  So I'm trying to come up with a generic conversion I can use; I've seen many different variations online, so I'm not really sure what ratios to use.  I figured I could use BeerSmith and find ratios myself by matching the OG and the color.  So I think I should be able to just compare the SRM values that BeerSmith gives me?  I just wasn't sure if there was something wrong since the color values in BeerSmith were so different from those on the Briess spec sheet.

Oginme said:

There is another way to convert this.  Bring up a blank recipe template.  Add the amount of Amber malt extract for the recipe.  From the Briess web site, the amber malt extract is comprised of 2-row pale ale malt, caramel 60 and carapils...

Click to expand...

This is basically what I was trying to do, but the color I was getting in BeerSmith, for the DME alone, didn't match the values on the Briess spec sheet, so I was concerned that something was wrong.

Where are you seeing carapils? From what I can see on the Briess website they just say it's a proprietary blend and don't list the malts.  I've seen base malt, caramel 60, and munich listed from other sellers (for example: http://www.midwestsupplies.com/briess-dried-malt-extract-sparkling-amber.html).

First, the color contribution of the extract within a recipe will be proportional to the amount of extract used versus post boil volume.  The amber extract may have a color of 13 srm listed when added as 1 lb per gallon.  If you add more, the color contribution increases. 

Second, you are correct in that the third ingredient is munich malt and not carapils.  I was trying to go from memory (bad me!) and got that wrong.  The lighter extracts contain carapils.

Third, I have attached a copy of the Briess extract booklet (albeit a couple of years old) which had more information on the extracts themselves.  You will see on pages 3 & 4 the breakdown of ingredients for each of the extracts Briess offers.  Additionally, you can see here the range of color contribution and gravity for various levels of extract loading per gallon.

I hope this helps.  It has been a long time since I fiddled around with extracts.

I'm confused by your response, OG. Could you clarify it, if you think I have it wrong?

Oginme said:

The amber extract may have a color of 13 srm listed when added as 1 lb per gallon.

Click to expand...

The OP was aware of this and used the number in the table on the sheet he posted. He even adjusted the amount to the 0.89 lb/gallon that Briess cites for a result of 13.

In your scenario, and his, using 13 for the color of the extract yields a result of about 8 SRM. To me, this means that the OP and your thoughts were in line with an MCU equation. But BeerSmith uses Morey, which modifies MCU to align with the logarithmic results of beer color, since it's refractive, not reflective.

So, wouldn't this mean that given the very reasonable expectation that 13 SRM is Briess' expected outcome, that the true malt color has to be calculated back from the Morey equation to get the true MCU value?

If you read my previous reply, I said that the color would be 13 SRM if added at a rate of 1 lb/gallon (actual number is 1.1 lbs to reach that figure).  One of the issues with the grain/extract colors in BeerSmith is that the color for grains is labeled as 'SRM' when, in fact, it should be Lovibond.  If you look at the Briess Extract Guide, They list the color as 10 Lovibond.  The color in the BeerSmith ingredient library for grains is listed as '10', the Lovibond rating. 

Brad goes through the calculation of color here: http://beersmith.com/blog/2008/04/29/beer-color-understanding-srm-lovibond-and-ebc/, which starts with the grain color in Lovibond.  The Morey equation actually starts with the MCU calculation and supplies the curve fit for darker beers to actual values.

I know that this has popped up in the past and Brad had said that for all intents and purposes he considered grain color as lovibond = SRM, which I do find a tenuous relationship over a broad range.  In this case of trying to match color of an extract with grains, I would try to match the SRM which results from the grain loading with in the recipe for the same ending gravity reading.  Your efficiency will play a key in exactly how much base malt versus the specialty grains to match color. 

Just to play with it, I took my recipe template and zero'd out all losses.  Set to extract, I took 1.0 kg of Amber DME into 10 liters of finished wort and then matched the color using 2-row Pale Ale, Briess Munich 10L, and Caramel 60L.  I came up with 87% Pale Ale, 7% Munich 10L, and 6% C-60, with my mash efficiency of 88%.  If I assume a mash efficiency of 75%, the numbers become to 89% Pale Ale, 7% Munich 10L, and 4% C-60.