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Understanding Malts and Ph.

rjb222

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Hi new to the forum. Long time brewer interested in upping my game. I am tryin to get my head around PH and what different malts do to the PH of the mash and how to alter the PH to get better style and scarification.
 
Very cool that you want to start learning the chemistry of beer.

pH is lower case, upper case. It stands for "power of Hydrogen."

The first thing is to get a pH meter with an accuracy of +/-0.02. Anything with less resolution won't really help you because the margin of error is wider than the target pH range.

The general rule of thumb is that darker malts lower mash pH. But this gets misleading when you want accuracy, since not all dark malts are equally acidic. Heck, not all pale malts are, either as there can be as much as 0.4 pH difference between them in distilled water.

However, there is no change in malt pH without Water. Humble water is both the platform and the roadblock for proper mash pH. The chemistry of the water is easier to adjust and guide than is malt.

Two books that will go through the nitty-gritty of brewing chemistry are:
Water by Palmer and Kaminsky
Principles of Brewing Science, 2nd Edition, Fix.

Get them. You'll never outgrow them.

 
I have Johns Book water, A water test lab with a PH meter. Using Beer Smith The beer I made a couple days ago was supposed to have a final PH of 6.2. Wound up at 6.9 I used Ro water profile that I had tested and then Used Portland Oregon as a wanted profile. Recommended with a 16 liter mash in and 17 liter sparge to add 2 grams of Baking soda to each for a close match. I know you can not match water from any where specifically But close is good enough. So with the PH numbers I wound up with am I close enough or should I be doing some experimenting. I have never done this and I never took chemistry in school so I am just trying to understand the results. It will take a bit to catch on to what is happening. I've always found asking questions bring answers. Thank you.
 
I recommend you go to:    https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Download the free spreadsheet and READ THE INSTRUCTIONS TWICE. Then, read the water knowledge page.

Bru'n Water takes some effort to get comfortable with it. After a few practice runs you'll find it's indispensable.

Most users prefer to use the target beer descriptions such as yellow full, amber balanced, etc, rather than city identities.
 
rjb222 said:
Using Beer Smith, The beer I made a couple days ago was supposed to have a final PH of 6.2. Wound up at 6.9

What? Did that get calculated in BeerSmith? To my knowledge, BeerSmith doesn't calculate pH. It has a place in the water calculator to enter your water pH, but it doesn't become part of any calculations.

Typical finished beer pH is 4.4 to 4.8. The typical mash pH is 5.2 to 5.6 and kettle is 5.3 to 5.5. This is regardless of style. Higher pH gives an aspirin/chalky mouthfeel and can finish harsh. Your reading is more than 100x more alkaline in pH than expected.

I used Ro water profile that I had tested and then Used Portland Oregon as a wanted profile. Recommended with a 16 liter mash in and 17 liter sparge to add 2 grams of Baking soda to each for a close match. I know you can not match water from any where specifically But close is good enough. So with the PH numbers I wound up with am I close enough or should I be doing some experimenting.

Is this beer already bottled? I would suggest tasting it. If it's harsh, I suggest adjusting the pH with phosphoric acid until it's in the range I noted.

When going from RO, there shouldn't be a need to add any carbonate or bicarbonate. Generally, chloride and sulfate are going to give you the best flavor results. Adding those also gives you calcium and if desired, magnesium, which are both important for mash stability and yeast health.
 
I have been trying to post the Beer smith mash profile where I found this information. Unfortunately I don't know what I am doing and can not copy paste screen shot ETC. No the beer is in primary so I have a chance to still balance the PH. This is y first run at Beer Smith and the Ph. So I am now officially mixed up.
 
OK. Cool.  All the pH assumptions are hypothetical until you taste the beer. Then you can measure it, and in all likelyhood, it's fine. Beer is sort of magic, that way. Malt wants to be beer.

Let it finish fermenting before you do anything else.

 
I find using some spring water for mashing and doing a temperature step mash, specifically an acid rest at around 110 and a protein rest around 122 does everything needed to keep the PH level low and in range. No additives or adjustments necessary this way. Great efficiencies too.
 
This is exactly what I used to do as well. I used Brew Toad for many years. I decided to up my game when I brought into my store a new piece of brewing equipment. I liked what I saw with Beer Smith and still do it is just a matter of learning the program and then adding my own personal points to it. Our local tap water is so high in magnesium that is right on the line for being considered potable. It is why I installed a RO water filter for making my wines and beers. The aquafer is very fast recovering and the minerals change daily. It makes a ok stout and if mixed down a decent red ale. but anything lighter than that and the beer is out of profile. The beer I brewed is a all grain kit not one of my own recipes as I need experience to talk about what I am selling out the door. I usually brew reds, Browns porters and stouts so again I am not up to speed with lighter beers.
 
Beersmith's Water page (Click Ingredients, then Water) shows the characteristics of the water that comes out of the pipe in the cities listed. That is not your target.

Use Bru'n Water to identify a better target then try additions to go from your starting water to approximate the target.
 
Moved from Primary to secondary just a couple min ago. took final PH it is a 4.76 ??? I had expected much higher so something did not read correctly ( likely myself usually guilty ) With 4.76 should I add some bicarbonate to bring it up a little? the taste is light and clean. Like it needs a bit of salt. But not finished yet and no CO2 which will change the flavor as well as CO2 is an Acid.
 
rjb222 said:
Moved from Primary to secondary just a couple min ago. took final PH it is a 4.76 ??? I had expected much higher so something did not read correctly

No. That's an acceptable pH.
 
brewfun said:
Very cool that you want to start learning the chemistry of beer.

pH is lower case, upper case. It stands for "power of Hydrogen."
It took awhile to understand what you told me here. Thank you for this I now am understanding I have to learn the proper notations to understand the chemistry.
 
I have been attempting to post the brewage smith mash profile wherever I found this data for insanity calender. sadly i do not grasp what i'm doing and might not copy paste screen shot.
 
Zeb said:
I have been attempting to post the brewage smith mash profile wherever I found this data. sadly i do not grasp what i'm doing and might not copy paste screen shot.

The current version of BeerSmith (2.2) doesn't calculate pH. A new update is in the works and this might (hopefully) be an added feature.

The important thing to remember is that malt does everything it can to become beer. Even if you don't understand the fine points of mash pH, the malt will still try to get there and make good beer.

pH is a measure of acid to alkaline conditions with 7 at the center, considered neutral. Although a specific target of 5.2 to 5.4 is often cited, the enzymes in malt will work in conditions from 4 to 6 pH. Not as well and not as fast, but they'll still work. As you learn to measure and control pH, you'll find that water composition is what drives the actual mash pH, with some adjustment coming from specialty malts. Although the actual science can be very specific, detailed and confusing, there are practical rules of thumb (found all over this and other forums) for various beer styles that yield excellent beer.

 
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