Vols Tab

Hi

Sorry, but I can't seem to find a help/explanation for the vols tab.  What I'd like to know is how it is set up to be used, particularly when adding top up.  Is this for adding it pre-fermentation?  If so, how does it relate to the fermentation tab (what volume and gravity should I put into the 'into fermenter' section)?  Is it possible to enter the measured post-boil volume (on the vols tab) to allow comparison to predicted and therefore make the equipment adjustments?  Is the batch size (quick tip says 'estimated batch size of the recipe, into the fermenter') from the target volume in the design?  Why does the estimated bottling volume seem to use this number rather than the measured batch size?  What number is the measured batch size supposed to be (measured pre top up or post)?

Sorry for all the questions!  If there is a video or something that explains how these numbers all relate to each other, can you please point me to the link?  Otherwise, I am using a separate excel spreadsheet to work all this out - but I suspect that BS2 actually does do it all, more accurately and powerfully than what I am doing at the moment.  The issue is probably with the user (read: me) and once I understand it, I'll be able to make better use of it.

Overall - fantastic program by the way!!!

The Vols tab is a summary of all the water use fields found throughout the recipe design and profiles.

Top up water applies to both the kettle and the fermenter. For the kettle, top up is assumed to be for your preboil volume, for instance if you did a partial mash and after sparging, you still need more water for the boil. Fermenter top up is post boil and chill, for instance if you didn't do a full volume boil.

Both of these parameters are found in your equipment profile. This'll let you scale recipes and account for your equipment limitations. If you don't add any extra water to either the kettle or the fermenter, then both of these fields would be zero.

Bottling volume isn't the same as batch volume because you'll have some loss to yeast and other things that reduce your volume. Again, in the equipment profile you define that loss (most people have a half gallon for a 5 gallon batch) so that your estimated bottling volume is correct. With BeerSmith 2.2, the bottling sugar needed is calculated from the estimated bottling volume.

The Vols tab Mash section gets its numbers from what you put into the mash section. It uses the estimated preboil volume before top up to determine the water needed for mash, sparge and deadspace loss.

When your equipment and mash profiles are accurate, BeerSmith does everything (and probably more) that your spreadsheet is doing.

Thanks, Brewfun for your answer and thanks for the quick reply.

Can I ask, what is the correct way to enter the following?

For background, I have recently acquired a grainfather.  Following from various sources, it seems BS2 and the grainfather calcs come up with differing results for mash and sparge.  Presently, I have been using the GF calcs, and making mash profiles for each different grain weight in BS2 to get it to calculate the correct values.  Previously, I did BIAB and BS2 worked well - I never needed top-up water.

Anyway, the last couple of brews I have ended up with less into the fermenter than planned.  I have aimed for 23L and ended up about 21L.  Also, my mash efficency has been pretty good, so I've been getting higher than planned gravities.  As such, I want to add water into the fermenter to make up to 23L.

For the most recent brew, I ended up with 21.3L, adding 1.7L to make 23L.  On the vols tab, I have entered ferm top-up as 1.7L, ferm batch size (left column) as 21.3L and measured batch size (right column) as 23L.  Est bottling volume is dependent on ferm batch size, and therefore loses accuracy as I have the lower volume (21.3L).  This becomes accurate if I then change that to 23L. 

Then, the measured batch size is entered as 23L.  This, however flows through to the fermentation tab and affects my calculated efficiencies.  Also, I'm not sure what gravity to record on the fermenter tab, into fermenter section.  I assume it is the diluted gravity with the topped up total volume.

My question really is then, where do I record the volume transferred into the fermenter (21.3L), the associated gravity (1.058), the post-top up volume (23L), and the post-top up gravity (1.055)?  I can see where the top-up volume itself goes.  Having these volumes will allow me to analyse my results and get my equipment setup more accurate.  I'm sure BS2 does all this, but it's not entirely intuitive (at least for me).

If it helps to send any attachments, let me know and I will put up the shots relating to this brew.

Thanks again in advance

Hey again

Was wondering if anyone had any further answers to my query about how to use the volumes for water in bs2? I still can't figure this out and it's throwing my calculations.

I really just want to be able to record my observed results so that i can adjust my various profiles and get this working for me again. Without an explanation of how and why these fields are linked, it's all guesswork for me.

Thanks again

You can enter your measured values for wort into fermentor and gravity on the fermentation page.  I have attached a screen shot with those fields circled.

Thanks Oginme

Sorry for the delay in thanking you.  Night shift is a killer!

I might seem a simpleton, but I'm still confused. 

Which values do I put in there?  If I put in the values as measured, pre-top up (ie 21.3L and OG of 1.058), I get an ABV of 6.3% and measured efficiency of 69.9% (pic 1). this includes a top up water value of 1.7L on the vols tab.

If I then change it to the values including the top up (ie 23L and OG of 1.055), then the ABV is 5.9% and measured efficiency is 71.6% (pic 2).  the top up water on the vols tab is 0.

It is still not clear to me which of these is correct.  I would have thought the first one is correct (ie I had 21.3L in and it was topped up with 1.7L - that at least is correct for my own record as that is what I did), but the ABV should actually come out as the second, lower option, as the original gravity was diluted.  IE BS2 should take the measured 21.3L and OG of 1.058, see that there was top up water to 23L and then automatically calculate the new, diluted, OG and work out the ABV from that value.  However, it doesn't seem to do this.

I realise that the changes in numbers aren't huge, but the resultant problem, that I see, is this.  BS2 relies on estimations for its calculations.  It is designed that we guess the efficiency value of our system, then compare to our results to actual brews to refine that original guess.  So called, "dialling it in."  Once that is done enough, the efficiency in the equipment profile will carry across and the calculations will become more and more accurate.  If, however, we are diluting volumes in the fermenter, etc, (like the example above), it starts throwing out the efficiency values and they no longer reflect the equipment profile (unless we set up multiple profiles, which seems silly).  When the equipment profile efficiency doesn't match what we are getting, BS2 calculations become inaccurate and unreliable and then the whole system falls down.

That and the ABV calculations are not accurate - meaning my estimations to drive also become less accurate.  above is an absolute difference of 0.4%.  Again, small, but it is only 1.5% difference between a standard 5% beer and a mid/light strength 3.5%.

Also, because I am limited in the amount I can boil, I want to do bigger batches by creating a heavier wort (greater OG) and diluting it to volume.  As the OG and dilutions become bigger, the differences in these numbers will also get bigger.

Surely, considering the number of people using BS2, this has been considered.  I just can't find where it is explained to do this correctly

Thanks again

bougie1st said:

Which values do I put in there? 

Click to expand...

The post top up value is what belongs in the batch volume and gravity fields. This represents what you made and are going to ferment.

IE BS2 should take the measured 21.3L and OG of 1.058, see that there was top up water to 23L and then automatically calculate the new, diluted, OG and work out the ABV from that value.  However, it doesn't seem to do this.

Click to expand...

In all cases, the batch volume in your equipment profile should represent what you expect in the fermenter. This will include the top up water. So, yes BeerSmith does calculate the undiluted volume and gravity, internally.

it starts throwing out the efficiency values and they no longer reflect the equipment profile (unless we set up multiple profiles, which seems silly).  When the equipment profile efficiency doesn't match what we are getting, BS2 calculations become inaccurate and unreliable and then the whole system falls down.

Click to expand...

You may be confusing Brewhouse Efficiency with Mash Efficiency. Your Brewhouse Efficiency is the total percentage of sugar that makes it to the fermenter, from the total available in your recipe. Mash efficiency is the total sugar extracted into the kettle.

Ultimately, if you populate the measured data fields with your actual results from the same point BeerSmith is calculating, you will have an accurate equipment profile. If your procedures or equipment changes you can modify your equipment, of course, but if you get greater or lesser efficiency as a result, the proper thing to do is use the scale recipe function to adjust your recipe between profiles, if you want to maintain gravity, color and IBU values.

Also, because I am limited in the amount I can boil, I want to do bigger batches by creating a heavier wort (greater OG) and diluting it to volume.  As the OG and dilutions become bigger, the differences in these numbers will also get bigger.

Click to expand...

If you have no losses to trub in your profile, that difference goes away. With decreasing post boil volume, the loss to trub is going to be at the higher concentration and therefore represents an increased percentage loss of sugar. Unless the loss to trub is maintained at the same ratio to the total batch size, Brewhouse efficiency and diluted gravity will change to account for the percentage of sugar lost.

The takeaway is that if you add water back to the kettle instead of the fermenter, you decrease the gravity of the trub, therefore increase the total sugar going to the fermenter.

I hope that helps.